[Doug]: Welcome to episode 26 of Feeling Through Live. I am joined here today by Monica Godfrey-Lehrer and Judy Wieber. And we have a great conversation ahead for you. So before we kind of hop into everything, why don't you to both introduce yourselves. Judy, do you want to, do you want to start?
[Judy]: Sure. My name is Judy Wieber and I live here in Suffolk County, West Babylon. Um, I'm a mom and a student presently at Helen Keller Services for the Blind in Islandia.
[Doug]: Excellent. And, Monica, why don't you introduce yourself as well.
[Monica]: Hi everyone. Good afternoon. My name is Monica Godfrey-Lehrer. I work for Helen Keller National Center as a supervisor of three different departments, orientation and mobility, low vision and audiology. It's great to be here.
[Doug]: Well, we're so happy to have you here, both. And, you know, let's just hop right into things. So the title for today's episode is White Cane Awareness Day. Also known as White Cane Safety Day. I know, depending on who you ask, they might say one or the other, but they're both the same day, October 15th. So we're using our Friday before October 15th to talk about White Cane Awareness Day. What it is, why it's important, why you should know about it whether you use a white cane or not. So, I want to hop right into what that is. So Judy, could you start things off by just explaining to people what White Cane Awareness Day is and why it's important?
[Judy]: Um, well the day is really...
[Doug]: Judy, we're having a little bit of that internet problem that we thought might be an issue. As those of you who are watching live know, internets can be... Judy, sorry, I'm going to just stop you for a moment. We lost you for a moment because the internet got a little choppy. So you want it, do you want to start that over?
[Judy]: Sure. Um, just that it's a day to really make aware of the use of white canes, people using white canes to get around in their communities to do everyday things, those with low vision or no vision. It was passed, I believe in 1964 by president Lyndon, B Johnson. There's a law giving the right of way also to people using canes, crossing the street to make people more aware of the fact that, you know, we're out there and we're using canes to help us get around safely.
[Doug]: Great. That's that's definitely a great, great start and introduction there. And Monica, maybe if you want to kind of fill in from your perspective, in your words, what is White Cane Awareness Day and why it's important for everybody? Not just people who use a white cane?
[Monica]: Well, back in the 1960s, the National Federation for the Blind was really active and advocating for the rights of blind individuals. And they really were instrumental in helping this joint resolution with Congress to pass this White Cane Safety Day back in 1964. And initially it was all about, you know, the white cane is a tool used by people who are visually impaired and blind to really probe their environment. You know, it's an extension of themselves to feel the ground and navigate. And you know, through time the tool really has become a symbol of independence and freedom among those who are visually impaired and blind. And that's really the greater thing. And that's why NFB has really changed the focus on the day from safety to awareness. It's so important for all of us to become aware that this really important tool is used by individuals not to say they're dependent, it's because they're independent. It's something that they need and it's an extension of themselves to be able to travel more freely and independently in the world.
[Doug]: Yeah. Beautifully put and, you know, definitely want to get more into everything having to do with White Cane Awareness Day. But before we do that, I'd love Judy, I'd love to start with you. If you could tell us a little bit about kind of everything that leads up to you using a cane yourself. If you could kinda kind of take us back in time and give us a little more context leading up to your personal cane usage.
[Judy]: Well at a very young age, I had been diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. I think it was about a year and a half. And my mom noticed I was having some trouble walking and, the doctors had diagnosed me with JRA. And there, the doctors also had sent me then to the eye doctors because they caused inflammation in my eye, which then led to glaucoma and cataracts...
[Doug]: Judy, if you can hear me, your internets getting a little choppy again. Hey, Judy, sorry to interrupt. Right when you're talking about cataracts, that's when we, it got a little jumbled. So if you just take a step back to wherever you were. Yeah. It's okay. We're, you know, again, here's the thing that everyone understands particularly during this time, internet is a thing that is always a little unpredictable and has been a little bit more so, so don't worry, everyone's got a healthy kind of patience for weird internet. But it's coming through okay now, so why don't you just continue from there.
[Judy]: Sure. So with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis, it caused inflammation in my right knee. And then also in my eyes, something called uveitis, um, and the treatment they use to treat the uveitis had caused glaucoma. So they were able to actually control the uveitis, but not the glaucoma. The glaucoma is something I still battle today with eye drops but have had several surgeries to lower the pressure. It's the pressure in the eyes affecting the optic nerve, which first takes peripheral vision. And when I turned 18, my visions was such that I was considered legally blind. I was graduating from high school and was introduced to the New York State Commission for the Blind. A man by the name of Ed Kaplan had come to my home with a white cane and showed me how to get around in my neighborhood using it. And I used it mostly through my college days. And then in 1990, the graduation of college, I had had some experimental procedures done to control the glaucoma. And there too, I then lost the remainder of my vision and relied heavily on the cane at that time. And then after that I went and got a guide dog from Smithtown Guide Dog Foundation. I went to work for a Newsday, here on Long Island as a telemarketer and then quality assurance person. And I did that for about 14 years. I got married, I had two children and, you know, you can travel, you can need to be...
[Doug]: Oh, sorry. Yeah. Just to, just to follow up on one part of your story there, because I'm interested, you know, as someone like yourself, who's both used a cane and a guide dog, I'm interested to talk about that distinction a little bit, but before we go into that again, you were talking about, you know, first starting to use your cane. Can we just go to that for a moment and kind of like, can you walk us through a little bit of what that experience was like being someone who's who's never used a cane before to learning how to use one and kind of just let everyone know what that experience was like for you?
[Judy]: Sure. Well, when I first came to use the cane, I had some central vision that I could you, I could still see, and the cane is only used when I needed it and it was hard to come to use it because then it, it really made others aware of the fact that I couldn't see. And that was still something that I was still struggling with, even to be called blind was very hard. I never liked that term. And even using the cane, I didn't really like using the cane initially either. So it took me a while. Um, he had come to show me how to use the bus, how to walk around in my neighborhood, had to go to the store independently. It really was a safety, you know, because it, again, it explained to others that I couldn't see and so people could offer assistance. And also, you know, it made me more confident traveling. I wasn't as timid, you know, because I was tripping on things and walking into things. So it, you know, it was an adjustment period, not the easiest, but it took me a while. And then as my vision started to decline, I realized I needed to use it more. And then, you know, then as I said anyway, and I had gotten a guide dog, and then, now after the birth of my children, my dog had come to retire and I then went back to using the cane. I've been toying with the idea of getting a dog, but there is some practical reasons as to why I haven't gotten a dog yet as a guide. I have a pet at home for the kids and myself and, you know, and use heavily the cane now getting around, walking in my neighborhood, going to the grocery store, different events.
[Doug]: Well I definitely, I want to get more to that kind of distinction or differences between cane usage and guide dog shortly, but, Monica, question for you and you know, something I know when we got to connect about this earlier in the week, you definitely have a really good understanding of kind of the history of the white cane, and kind of, you know, White Cane Awareness Day by extension. Can you give us a little bit of an overview? Because I know I found that really interesting as far as kind of like the earlier origins of the white cane to like where we are now.
[Monica]: Sure. You know, the, the white, the cane or a stick or a staff or anything like that, that goes back to really biblical times. I mean, you can think of like, just growing up before you heard about what a white cane was, maybe you were hiking in the woods, you pick up a stick and you'd use it to explore the ground. Maybe use it for support. So the use of a long object, stick or whatever, it goes back a long time, but it really, I mean, even maybe the 1800s and late 1800s. So it's the first documented use. However, there was a gentleman, in the UK, his name was James Biggs from Bristol and in 1921, and James was an artist and he became blind and he was using, I guess what we would call today a cane. And he noticed drivers were not stopping when he was using the cane. So he was the first person documented to paint the cane white and to really increase driver's acknowledgement that here there's someone crossing the street. And then the first documented, really use in the United States was back in the 1930s. When there was a president of the Lion's Club, his name was George Farnham. He also painted a black cane white and put the red stripe at the bottom of the cane. And that's now known as the white cane in the United States. So I guess we could talk a little bit more as we go along, maybe we could drop little hints along the way, Doug. But really the next big thing was when all of the vets were returning from World War II, Dr. Richard Hoover, he was really instrumental in developing along the white cane and in the field of orientation and mobility. The first really known technique for our profession was that of the Hoover method and that was when individuals would tap the cane from side to side in sweeping motion, but keeping it, really tapping it from side to side, keeping it kind of a little bit above the ground, but to probe their environment. And really that's really how the training began. The first documented programs in the United States of course were started by the National Federation for the Blind in the sixties, and then followed by Boston College in 1960 and Western Michigan University in 1961. So there are so many dates within the field of orientation and mobility and also the journey of the cane which I find the best timeline to be on afb.org. They have a really great timeline that everyone can look at. And that's the American Federation for the Blind. So much to learn. But it's so great to know and understand what it's all about.
[Doug]: And, you know, Monica, part of what you just brought up and thank you for that, that little run through of, a truncated history of the white cane there. But you know, Monica, Judy, Monica was just talking about kind of the different cane usage techniques. And certainly there's been an evolution of those over time. Can you talk about personally, you know, what cane you use now and maybe if that's different from a cane that you started with and maybe how your personal cane techniques have maybe changed or evolved over time?
[Judy]: Oh, when I first started using the cane and I use now a graphite, a four section cane that folds up and, but when I first started using it, it was more of an aluminum kind of cane with a pencil tip where I did a two point touch as Monica was talking about, you know tapping back and forth in like an arc motion about a foot and a half in front of my body to protect me from anything coming. And also giving me a little path that I know is clear. But I use now more of a technique where it's swishing from left to right, right to left, being in constant contact with the ground below me, letting me know the terrain, you know, whether there's any holes or curves. Also the tapping also gives me some information about my environment as well. The sound that I received back from the tap, especially if I'm approaching a stairwell, the echo sounding, or in a cement, inside of a building, the echo sound coming back kind of gives me an idea of how to get around that. There are things that are am approaching. Really when you're using a cane you're very much in touch with your environment. And not only the cane gives you information, but your other senses as well, such as the pavement under your feet, you know, or am I on grass. You know, using my feet helps me to also navigate, I use the cane to trail along the grass line or along with the sidewalk. You know, I'm very conscious also of, is it going downhill or uphill the pavement below me? You know, am I on gravel or, you know, am I on grass when I'm outside? Then of course listening for different things and locating different things helps to orient me in space. You know, the feel of the air around me, sometimes turning a corner on a street, you know, the draft from a building, you know, if you're in a hallway, lets you know where, you know, there's an open doorway or a corridor. So you use a lot of your senses or all of your senses, in order to get around.
[Doug]: And you know, Monica, again, Judy was kind of highlighting some of this in what she was just talking about, about her personal use, but can you, there are, I think what might not be apparent to a lot of people who don't use a cane is the fact, knowing the fact that there are a lot of different types of canes and certainly not just an evolution over time, but certainly different options as they stand now. Can you walk us through a little bit of like what some of the different types of canes are, and fill us in on that a bit?
[Monica]: Sure. This is Monica speaking. So the, when the came first came out, it was just a long rigid cane. It also had a crook on the end of it, almost like a Shepherd's crook. And that was initially designed in the way that you would hold it, travel to protect your wrists and your fingers as you were traveling. And the cane has evolved where the crook is no longer. It's almost like a golf grip on most canes today. There are still rigid canes that are really great for people who travel every single day because they really take a beating from the outside world. Most people today use a folding cane, which comes in different sections or they use a collapsible cane. And through all my years of teaching mobility, I always think you always want to go with a preference of the individual taking into consideration where they travel, how often they travel. You know, it may not be uncommon for someone to travel with a long rigid cane, but also have a full length cane in their bag because you never know, you know, something unfortunate could happen while they're traveling. The cane could be bent or broken and they would need to enact and use the second cane. So it's all personal preference. There's aluminum canes, graphite, fiber glass, and I'm sure in the future there'll be different designs making them lighter. But it depends on the traveler too. You know, most people like a lighter weight cane because sometimes the tips weigh the cane down a little bit and some people with balance challenges prefer a heavier cane. So it's just really about that individual traveler that makes the use of the cane important in the type of cane they use.
[Doug]: So I guess as a specific example, if I'm someone who say, uses a cane and lives in a city, but occasionally likes to like go on more like wilderness like treks and hikes, I'll probably be using a different cane for each of those environments. Is that correct?
[Monica]: This is Monica. Sure. And, and you know, you may use different tips as well. You know, there's various different tips like Judy said, you know, the first cane tip that was out was a pencil tip and it was just a little narrow tip. And I'll be honest with you, when I was getting my training at Western Michigan and I used that pencil tip, boy, did they get caught in everything. But that was really the purpose of the cane, is that it's supposed to tell you what's there on the ground. But thank God there's been an evolution in tips, you know, where there's smaller tips, there's bigger tips and they roll. And now there's options for everybody, which is great. And I always think as an instructor and in life, you always want options because without options you're stuck. So you may have a few different tips depending on where you're traveling.
[Doug]: And you know, something that comes to mind when I think of like specifically White Cane Awareness Day and something that we were starting to get into of like the fact that it's an awareness day. Again, it's not, not even so much for the people that use a white cane. Obviously people use a white cane are very aware of it. Part of the awareness day aspect is for everyone else, people who don't use a cane, we were starting to talk about again, why it's important for other people to know about cane usage. And one of the things that comes to mind. I know we get asked this a lot when we do Feeling Through Experiences and, you know, Judy, I kind of ask this question to you. And again, there's certainly with the caveat that there's no one size fits all answer to this. But how might you answer someone if they ask the question of, hey, if I'm someone who doesn't use a cane, doesn't necessarily know much about that world, and I see someone out in the world in a city per se, on a street with a cane, how do I know, how do I help that person? Or how do I know if I should help that person? How should I approach that situation? Again, there's no one size fits all answer to that. But how would you start to answer that question if someone asked that?
[Judy]: Well, I think if a person is to approach a person who is using the white cane, the first thing that I would say is the nicest thing is just to first ask that they need assistance. And that way it gives the person using the cane to say yes or no. Because some people are very independent and they know the route that they're going and may not need assistance. So it kind of respects their dignity and allows them to, you know, say yes or no. And then if it is that the person does need assistance, because it does happen, you kind of get into areas where you don't know or you get disoriented, especially on a day where it may not be so nice out. And the sounds are different. Or, you know, if you're out in the, in the snow, it's a lot harder to feel your landmarks and the pavement under your feet. So, if a person does need assistance you could offer them sighted guide, where you would offer them your elbow and then person would hold onto your elbow. And if you keep your elbow close to you as you travel it then puts the person who can't see a little bit behind. And that puts the person in the lead who can see, the person guiding. And, it's funny, but sometimes I've had experiences where even though I have my cane, you know, people don't always realize that I can't see. And I've even been to like a restaurant and a person has, you know, guided me to where I have to sit at the table and then leaving the restaurant, there'll be walking me out and they'll be saying, they have said, you know, I'll walk you to your car. Where are you parked? And I'm thinking, uh, they don't give me a license. It's not a good thing. You know, it just, they just weren't able to put, you know, put it together. Or if, say you were looking for something and you might ask, you know, where is the bus stop and a person will say, well, it's right over here. And I'm like, okay, where's over here? They're pointing, you know, and that's what I'm doing right now with my hand, Oh, it's right over here. You know, so if a person can be very specific about the directions that they get and often too, when a person is looking at a person, the perspective is opposite. So, you know, my right is your left. And so in a lot of times, people have trouble with that. When giving direction, you have to try to think of the perspective of the person who can't see in order to give the detailed description.
[Doug]: You know, Judy, your example is so apt. It really points out the fact that the awareness day, the importance of the awareness day for other people, right? For there to be more awareness for people that when they see a cane, a white cane, even if they don't use one themselves, they know what it means. They have a better understanding and context of how to approach or not approach, right, ultimately a situation. But like if you start to associate with a white cane, if you start to associate some of the deeper understandings that you're sharing, someone will be more likely to not just say, oh, it's over there or point to a direction and actually have the deeper understanding of the context of the situation and make sure that either, whether they're going with you or describing where to go, that they understand how to do so it's actually helpful for you. So, you know, again, great example that really illuminates why White Cane Awareness Day is an important day for other people who don't use canes to really understand that. And I'm gonna, I want to get into a lot more of this in just a moment, but before we do so I'm going to take a quick pause for an interpreter switch. And all right, we're all switched over there. So I'm continuing here, but before I do again, I'm about to go to our, actually our first question here, but, you know, again, by all means and for anyone who's watching, feel free to ask any questions that you might have. I know that I've learned a lot over the last week in preparing for this episode about White Cane Awareness Day, and certainly a lot about white canes and why it's important to have a greater understanding. And if you have any questions by all means, feel free to ask and we'll do our best to get to them. So, Judy, this first question is for you, it happens to actually come from a Judy as well, who's asking the question. So the question is, Judy, aside from the many practical safety uses for a white cane, what are some of the more symbolic things that are also important that you would like sighted people to be aware of? So we just starting to get into this, but maybe if there's anything kind of to add to that, please go ahead, Judy.
[Judy]: Symbolically, just, you know, making it awar,e the community aware that a person using the white cane is using it to get around because they cannot see, they have some type of vision loss. So it does symbolize vision loss and they are using this tool to navigate safely. It's, you know, it is very liberating. It's the difference between staying home or getting out and doing things and to do it independently because you can't always have somebody with you. And so it's a symbol of freedom and it's a symbol of safety and it's a symbol of a person who can see and just trying to make their way as best as they can.
[Doug]: Beautiful answered. So, you know, I want to take a moment, you know, Monica, you had told us at the top of this episode when you introduced yourself a little bit more about, you know, your profession and kind of the multiple hats you wear at the Helen Keller National Center. I'd love to just explore that a little bit more. If you go like a little bit more into depth of those, the various avenues of what you do there, and certainly how it directly applies to a lot of what we're discussing today around White Cane Awareness Day.
[Monica]: Sure. This is Monica speaking. So I I'm actually rounding out my 21st year at Helen Keller National Center. And, I remember when I first started there back in December of '99. Dr. Gene Bourquin really took a chance on me. He was the supervisor of the O and M department at the time. And I was just a new mobility instructor. And I knew how to instruct those with visual impairment to total blindness, but I had no idea how to work with a dual sensory loss. And through all of these years and great mentorship from Gene and a lot of my colleagues, I've really, I mean, I have to say that every single day working at Helen Keller is just magic. You have no idea what's going to happen. You know, the residential nature of the center helps us to really support everyone who comes to learn and everyone, you know, is so different. And I was having a conversation with one of my colleagues, I think it was yesterday and, you know, deafblindness or blindness or deafness, It's just a part of who you are as an individual. It's not a label that should identify or, you know, really make who you are. It's just a characteristic of you. And I viewed every single person that I've worked with over these past 21 years, it's just that. Someone was asking me like, what do you do with all of them? You know, every single person? I said, no, no, what do I do with each of them? And I think that's probably the biggest thing I've done over the years is that I've worked with each individual and with all of my colleagues to help them achieve whatever it is that they're looking for. If it's traveling out to the community, traveling to a work site, traveling to college and, you know, I'm so, so fortunate to have both a low vision department and the audiology department, because most blind rehab centers around the country do not have an audiology department. So we're so fortunate to be able to say, hey, so and so went out on a mobility lesson today and they were identifying traffic sounds. Can we have the audiologists come out with us and really understand what equipment they need? You know, there's a mobility setting on hearing aids that are so great to turn on when you're out there traveling, or maybe there's an assistive listening device that would help. And maybe a quiet area where we're talking about a lesson and my mobility and my low vision instructor, she will actually say, hey, you know, we need to add some medical filters too, you know, which are known as sunglasses to help someone see better when they're walking from a well lit area to a shady area. I mean, we just have the ultimate team at Helen Keller National Center that we look at people in a 360 degree view. And it's just a gift to be able to work with everyone every single day and to know that each individual that comes truly leads their program. We're just a part of their journey. And I'm so grateful to be a part of it.
[Doug]: Well, Monica, so many gems that you just had in there. And, you know, certainly as someone who's had the distinct pleasure and honor to work with the Helen Keller National Center for quite some time, now I can certainly second everything you're saying about HKNC and you know, something else that came up for me, and again, I just keep filtering this through White Cane Awareness Day, and something that was so great that came up for me in what you were just saying is, you know, when you were saying, when asked, oh what do you do with all of them, you say, what do I do with each of them. And really seeing each person as a person with their disability, whether, again, in your case, dealing with deafblindness, in Judy's case, you know, talking about the blind and low vision population, is certainly that's an aspect of who you are, but it's one aspect of many and seeing someone as this fully formed human. That like, when I think of back to the question of, well, what do I do when I approach someone and see if they need help? Well, a good thing to start with is maybe start thinking of the person as a person and not as their disability. Because that'll probably right off the bat really inform how you're going to go about talking to them. Right. And I think that's, it comes so much of the awareness that we talk about on a regular basis. And, you know, obviously around, in this case, White Cane Awareness Day, or whether it's, Deafblind Awareness Week, there's certainly unique aspects to each one of them. But I feel like a fundamental cornerstone of each is if you were to see each person as a person and in these cases, not as their disability, you're going to be in pretty good shape for everything else that follows. And, you know, certainly as someone who, you know, is maybe about three years into really my formal education of the deafblind, blind, and low vision communities, and certainly learning on a daily basis, I always say, if you, if you're grounded in that, you're going to do well. Because if you maybe, you know, say something a little bit, you know, not in the best way you could or whatever it is that you don't know, if it's coming from that place, someone will be more than happy to fill in whatever gaps of understanding you have. I feel like it really only starts to be really offensive and off-putting when you treat someone not like a person, but as their disability is were kind of like most of the problems arise. Right? So again, Monica so much in what you said there really, really helped illuminate that point. And I want to come back to some of it more in a moment, but first another question for you, Judy. You got a little bit of activity back there.
[Judy]: Yes. Hold on one sec. Hold on one sec.
[Doug]: This is, you know, this is one of the, one of the things about when we're live. Now we're all, our offices or our whole worlds are our homes. Certainly dealing with a few more elements than normal there, but, it looks like, maybe, Judy, you got things to settle down a little bit over there.
[Judy]: Yes, let's hope. I have an active household.
[Doug]: Whoever's there, if they end up keep talking, we're going to have to just pull them into this episode.
[Judy]: That's right, right. I wanted to also talk about the fact that, um, I am a member of the American Council of the Blind, which is another national organization. And we've done a lot to make the blind community aware of accessible traffic signals, which is another important pedestrian safety tool where we actually get access to pedestrian signals, traffic signals, you know, it's an, it's something that's auditory as well as it vibrates. And I've had the opportunity to have two of them installed in, in my area and what it actually does as anyone would approach an intersection and if it has a pedestrian, I think they call it a ped head, where, you know, you see that picture of the little guy that's going to walk or not walk, the pedestrian signal of where you, when you hit the button on the, on the pedestrian signal, it will let you know that it's safe to walk or that the sign is now saying to walk. So it'll actually put it out auditorily, or it will vibrate. There's a, on the ones that we have here in town. It's like an embossed arrow that starts vibrating when the pedestrian signal walk sign is on. So it's access to information that you would see visually or hear, well, you wouldn't hear a signal, but for these signals you can hear. You know, it lets, you know, when the light has turned, turns green and though you still need to still be aware of traffic around you because anything mechanical, you know, can break. So you still need your mobility skills and training to listen for traffic. And then there's a lot that goes into the training, crossing a very busy intersection, and I'm sure Monica could give you more on that, but, you know, you have to listen for walking with the traffic parallel and that using a block or a car as a blocker does take a lot of guts to do that. And I, and using the assessable signals do certainly help. And so I'm glad that they have these things. It's a relatively new, I would say within the last, I say 10 to 15 years, maybe they've had them. But not everybody knows about them and it's based on need, you know, it's part of the Americans with Disabilities Act. There's a section that talks about access to signage or environmental signs and, or, I can't remember the exact wording, but it's giving us access to something that you would normally have visually. And in order to get one installed, you do need to contact the municipality that governs your traffic signals. So you have to know, is it a state road? Is it a county road? And then you have to write to them and you have to let them know your need. And then somebody will come down and evaluate, but the more people are aware of it and the more people asked for it, the more that it'll become, you know, commonplace in, the community. And it not only helps people with low vision, it not only helps people who are deafblind, but it helps, you know, old elderly people crossing intersections, mothers who might be traveling with their children. It's just another tool that we all can benefit from.
[Doug]: And, you know, Judy, you know, you've aptly pointed out the importance of advocacy. Certainly that's something that has been a big part of our discussions often on this platform. Certainly, you know, recently, you know, celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act. And, you know, Monica, a question that comes from that is around, you know, obviously, you know, Judy was describing kind of like this kind of, you know, in her immediate environment advocacy with, you know, the kind of, the local municipalities to get this accessible traffic light installed. What about, how does advocacy play in when you're training someone? Like their personal advocacy on like a moment to moment basis? How does that play into your work when working with people in mobility?
[Monica]: This is Monica speaking. I think that's a very foundation in how we serve every single person that comes to Helen Keller is that their voice matters. And it matters a lot, just like all of our voices matter. And that, you know, with time and practice, your voice gets stronger. You know, in the beginning, when you're advocating to get assistance at a store, maybe you're fully blind and you're getting it. It's scary. It's, the same level of being scary when maybe we go on public transportation for the first time. Every first time in life is scary to all of us. And I think when you bring a sense of normalcy to the training and saying like, you know, we're all the same with our fears. You know, the fear is just maybe different. But learning how to speak up and say, this is what I need. Like, for example, when Judy was saying, you know, when you're guiding someone, you could just say, how can I help you? And you can help your student find their voice saying, can I take your arm? You know, because people want to help. What they may do is they may push, pull, tell you it's okay to cross the street. And you're like, hello, I'm blind, I can't see where to go. Or, I'm deafblind, I can't hear or see anything. But if you have the words, whether they're spoken written or gestural, you can advocate for yourself. And we do a lot of that practice in all of our classes at Helen Keller, especially in mobility. You know, we practice a lot at street corners with how to accept human guide assistance and how to advocate for the right assistance because in life, all of us, how is anyone supposed to know what we need if we can't say what we need or demonstrate what we need. So that practice is so important and you know what, we're all forever advocates of our own needs. And that will just never stop.
[Doug]: You know, Monica, I felt like I could, I feel like I could derive like many wise quotes from much of what you're sharing today. And something, you know, that you were just talking about that, again, we spoke about earlier when, Judy, you were talking about answering the question of like someone who asked, how can I help, or if I should help. Alice Eaddy, a dear friend of ours notes and, you know, kind of in conjunction with what you were just talking about, Monica, she says, please stress why it's so important not to grab a blind or deafblind person in an effort to force assistance upon them. You create fear, not the impression that you want, to be helpful. Especially since some of us can't hear you approaching. So certainly, Alice, I hope I believe Monica was just speaking to that, but, you know, really, as you just detailed, Alice, in addition to what, Monica, you just shared and Judy, what you shared earlier, certainly that's a point that can't be spoken enough and can't be made, people to be made more aware of, because it's certainly an important one and something that certainly a lot of people in the deafblind, blind and low vision communities have to deal with on a pretty regular basis. Please, Judy, go ahead.
[Judy]: Sorry, just, I wanted to say that I've had the experience where I was at a corner and was going to cross and somebody came over and not knowing, I guess, how does to ask, took my arm. And I ended up actually crossing over, you know, the wrong street. So now I had two streets to cross in order to get to where I needed to go. And the attention was good. And, you know, because we really weren't communicating, this is early on. And, you know, we weren't really communicating, I wasn't communicating what I really needed and they weren't really asking either. And I was going, you know, they were taking me. And so I guess that sometimes if you don't ask and you don't say, then you might end up on the wrong street corner. And haveore m work to do.
[Doug]: Go ahead, Monica.
[Monica]: That is just so true. It's just like, you know, with timing, you have a better understanding of your environment and where you want to go. Because, you know, as Dr. Gene, you know, when he was doing all of his research on the street crossing card and in all of his research, you know, deafblind travel, you know, what he found was that people truly want to help, but often when it comes to street crossings, they will help you in the direction they are traveling. And sometimes if you don't let go of their arm, they will help you to cross several more streets to just, they're just being nice. And, you know, in mobility, a lot of times we let that happen. You have to let those things happen to have a moment of, oh, okay, now I need to pay attention because I need to get places. But those things will happen. And I think the other thing I wanted to say is that, you know, when people grab, push, pull and try to help someone who's visually impaired or blind, just take a moment and consider anyone who's not visually impaired or blind. Would you push, pull, or grab them? No. So don't touch please.
[Doug]: Right? Exactly. It's like, well maybe if you just applied how you treat anyone else to this situation, that's a great place to start from because you wouldn't do that for anyone else. Certainly people who are sighted and hearing sometimes need help navigating a space too, or need directions. And you're not going to like go up and grab them without communicating with them either. So, you know, great, great, well, put there. Judy, there's another question for you from Kimman. Kimman asks, what is the practical difference between having a cane and a guide dog and does having one mean you don't use the other?
[Judy]: Well there are pros and cons to both. If anybody just heard the dog barking in the backyard, she's my house, but she's not a guide.
[Doug]: Obviously you're dog can obviously hear our conversation and is wanting to speak for itself.
[Judy]: And so sometimes dogs have their own minds and want to do with what they want to do. So that is a kind of a drawback. Using a cane is something you can fold up and put in your pocket book and, you know, have when you need it whenever you need it. You know, dogs can sometimes be stubborn and not always want to do what you want to do as my dog is talking now. And then, also the cane puts you in touch with your environment. You know, you can find a landmark easier with a cane that you might be using, like going down here when I was taking the kids to the bus stop, you know, when they were getting on the school bus to go to school, you know, and I was holding the hand of my daughter and using the cane to get to the bus stop. And I would know that as I come to a certain part, there was a fence and, you know, if I had a guide dog, the dog would go right around it. And I wouldn't know, you know, and it's a little disorienting at times. You know, not knowing if I've passed my landmark or am I at my landmark or like even a mailbox, like we used to use as, okay, this is where I have to go, and then it's up a little bit and I make my turn. So canes definitely let you know of your environment. But guide dogs will go, you'll go a lot quicker with the dog because they're not stopping. And, you know, they're, unless they're distracted and then it wouldn't be good. But, you know, most guide dogs are very disciplined and the team has to be very disciplined. It's not, you both are working together. You have to know where you're going and you have to still listen as to where you are. It's a lot of commitment. You know, dogs need care, they need to be walked and fed and taken out for a break. When I went to, when I was working at Newsday, I had to find a relief area for, you know, where I could take my dog out. And, you know, with a cane, you don't have to take your dog out. You don't have to take you cane for a potty break.
[Doug]: That would be a very special type of cane. I'm not sure they've come up with that one yet.
[Judy]: But of course, a dog is, you know, it's your friend, you know, it's your companion. It's, they're very sweet and lovable. You know, they're good friendship too. So again, I can remember a time when I was in a cab and I had my dog and, you're getting the dog to get down and under, and then the little space and they've been trained to do it, but my dad was very stubborn and wanting to get up on the seat with me, you know, and that wouldn't, didn't sit too well with the cab driver. And I don't blame him, but, you know, you don't want to be sitting there all day fighting with your dog, you know, get down on the ground. So, you know, there's a lot of pros and cons, like I said, like a guide dog will prevent you from getting hit by a car, you know, falling down a stairwell. You don't need to take as much time to, you know, get assistance from people because, you know, once you've gone through a route and a dog, you've trained with the dog and you know where you're going and it's a lot quicker and they will prevent you, like I said, any oncoming traffic, they're trained to disobey a command as well. You're putting all your trust in an animal. So that's a big thing to adapt to as well. And they are, you know, things happen even sometimes, like they can get distracted and, you know, things. I think I shared with you the other day how I, one of the first trips to the park with my guide dog, Aster, she was sniffing the ground. She was very interested in something on the ground. And I kept telling her, you know, hup-up, hup-up. And she wasn't going and I thought, well, come on, you know, you're being stubborn, she's sniffing. And I went forward and fell right into the pond, you know, up to my knees in water. And she wasn't going, she wasn't budging. And I just figured, you know, that she was more interested in what the park had to offer. And, you know, I didn't, wasn't reading her correctly and, you know, went into the water. So, there's a lot involved in both cases. A lot of training, a lot of practice. Practice helps. Going over things a lot helps trying to learn the routes. You know, you use the same routes. It helps.
[Doug]: You know, on a related note, and we have a great question here from Alana, and this is actually something I didn't know until very recently, but, Monica, maybe if you could take this one. She asks, are there benefits to a guide mini horse? And are there any drawbacks? Do you know anything about that subject? Because I personally did not even know that there were mini horse guides until very recently. Is that something that has come across your experience at any point?
[Judy]: Well, I have heard about them and what I, and I don't know much about them. I was kind of interested in finding out more of myself, but I think they wear diapers, I think. So I don't know, as far as like the maintenance of, you know, that might be a drawback.
[Doug]: Sure. I'm just curious, Monica, in your, I know that you've worked with guide dogs obviously, has a guide mini horse ever come up for you, or do you know anyone that uses them?
[Monica]: This is Monica. No, I haven't. And we haven't built the stables yet at Helen Keller. But from what I know, the guide ponies or mini horses that are out there have been used for people who live in more country like settings. I can't foresee them being used in urban or residential settings because they do require more space, but I don't think there's any downfall to any of the things that individuals use to travel as long as they're using it to benefit themselves. And, you know, I just want to go back to that point that Judy was making about her dog, Aster, was that whether you're using a cane or a guide dog or a guide pony, you never go forward in the world when you're traveling outside of your home specifically without the dog going forward, the pony going forward, or your team going forward, because they're clearing the path for you to go forward. And I think that's, I mean if that's one last thing I have to say, you know, today regarding White Cane Awareness Day is that it's so important to probe your environment, you know, to make sure it's safe to forge ahead. And, you know, all of these tools and living animals that help everybody, the goal is overall safety, but as Judy so carefully pointed out, the traveler is the person in charge, you know. They're the ones that make the decisions. And like you said, Judy, it's a tool and it's really about independence and freedom. And thank God there's white canes.
[Doug]: And, you know, we're getting close to the end of our time here today, but we still have a little bit of time left. And I'm wondering, you know, Judy, starting with you with the last, you know, maybe with our last, you know, 30 seconds each here, if there's anything that you'd like to share in closing. It could be something about White Cane Awareness Day, or just, you know, any kind of sentiments you want to leave with. Is there anything you'd like to share?
[Judy]: Well recently with being at Helen Keller Services, and I'm on in their team program right now. And I'm there with other people who have been newly blind and more recent than I. I've been now without my vision longer than I had been with my vision. I lost my sight when I was 22, totally. And now I'm 52, so 30 years without vision. And what I would say to somebody who recently lost their sight is don't be afraid to get out and do to use the tools that are being given to you. Don't let it keep you inside. Because when you're out and amongst everybody, that's what it's all about. Life experience, touching others. And I know Coronavirus right now has us afraid to do that. And it's, you know, putting distance and, but not to be afraid to ask for assistance and realize that you have skill and have talent, and we all have it. We practice our skills, we get better. So I think really the key is practice. Be confident, put your foot forward with your safety devices, but get out and do,don't, isolate yourself.
[Doug]: Well, truly beautifully put there, Judy, and thank you for sharing that. I'm sure that that resonates with a lot of people who are watching. Monica, just same to you. I'm wondering just if you have any kind of final sentiments to express, whatever that might be.
[Monica]: This is Monica speaking. Just, a word of encouragement, you know, for anyone who is newly diagnosed with a visual impairment or on their way to total blindness, you know, it's important to start, it's important to start your journey with a white cane. I always like to say, just attach it to your body, wear the carabiner clip or a keen holster, get used to having it on you and start using it. You know, every bit of practice, whether it's math homework or using your cane, practice does make perfect. And without that cane, you're truly not safe. So start using it today, start your journey. If you're out there and you're newly diagnosed, reach out and get some help. You know, it's a beautiful journey.
[Doug]: Well, thank you for sharing that, Monica. And obviously, you know, one of the places people can reach out to is Helen Keller National Center. You can go to HelenKeller.org, certainly to find out more about all the services that the whole Helen Keller network provides. And Judy, was there, was there something that you wanted to note before we sign out here?
[Judy]: Yes. That also, I would encourage people who are sighted not to be afraid to talk to somebody who, you know, is visually impaired. To reach out and ask, respect as we had talked about before, you might make a new friend. You know, if somebody needs assistance, never shy away from it, you know, to offer and then to just respect whatever answer you receive, whether it's no I'm fine or yes, thank you. And this is the way, you know, I can help, you know, let them know what it is you need. Like you said, to advocate that way. That's really, that's communication. That's reaching out and touching. That builds community.
[Doug]: Yeah. And you know, Judy to just kind of pick up what you were just talking about. I can certainly second that, you know, as someone in myself where, you know, kind of one of the great life journeys that I've been on over the last few years was in, all stems from me connecting with, Artemio, a deafblind man, one night, late, on a New York City street corner and all the gifts that have come from there. Certainly a lot of great relationships, really close friendships within the deafblind community, blind, and low vision communies. So I'm definitely living proof on the other side of what you're saying, as far as, you know, how much value connecting with all types of people can really provide in your life. And, you know, I just want to thank both of you, Monica and Judy, for joining us today. It was really quite a pleasure. And I'm really glad that we got to talk, not just about White Cane Awareness Day, but certainly a lot of really interesting issues that stem from that. And I want to thank all of you who joined us today.It's, been a pleasure to have you all, you asked some great questions today and certainly had some great comments to share. As always, again, reminder too, White Cane Awareness Day, also known as White Cane Safety Day is on October 15th, which is a Thursday. So clearly we're doing this on, we do these on Friday. So we wanted to do it the Friday before, but certainly there's still plenty of time to share whatever you've learned today with others. And certainly help raise awareness leading up to, and then on October 15th, which is White Cane Awareness Day. So with that said, thank you everyone. We will be back again next week, same time, same place with another episode of Feeling Through Live. And until then we hope you have a wonderful weekend and week ahead. Bye everyone. Thank you.