DOUG: Welcome to Episode 7, Feeling Through Live who just finished his junior year at Hofstra. The topic is redefining Mike's relationship with blindness, technology and what the landscape looks like entering his senior year at a time which has a degree of uncertainty for us. So before we hop into it why don't you introduce yourself.
MIKE TAYLOR: I am an IT major, I hope to embark into a future with assistive technology.
DOUG: Hi to everyone joining us, hi Barbara, hi Lisa, hi Alice. If you can share this conversation on your page if you are watching on Facebook that would be awesome to get more people in here and get the discussion going.
Mike there's so much to get into today and I want to go back to the beginning. Talk about your childhood and maybe if you could share with us some of the challenges that you had growing up.
MIKE TAYLOR: When I was very young I always had issues connecting with the other students in my school because I was the only visually impaired student and I went to the regular neighborhood public school and since there was no one else like me connecting to the other kids and they didn't want to connect with me. I had a few good friends but most people didn't know how to deal with someone with a visual impairment or they didn't want to, it led to some bad experiences. Some kids were mean. Not even that they were trying to be in some cases but a lot of cases they didn't know how to handle a situation. It created a closed off mentality. It was like oh here's the blind kid coming, let's scatter, do something else.
DOUG: Do you remember the first time you were really aware of like, feeling like you were separated from your peers?
MIKE TAYLOR: It had to be probably in the first and second grade. It was the first time I realized I was one kid sitting alone in the playground and everyone else was running around playing with their group of friends.
DOUG: To get a better sense of you, in your case did you find it was more just being excluded from people? It was kids being like, really outwardly mean to you? Was it both? What was your experience like in that regard?
MIKE TAYLOR: In terms of the kids being mean some of them were mean and they knew it, they were trying to be mean. A lot of times they didn't know what they were doing was mean and hurtful. That's why it lets the feeling of exclusion. For example in middle school when we had, I think it was sixth or seventh grade, actually late elementary school I'm sorry. We had this assignment where we made this giant American flag on the hallway. Everyone had to write a quote they felt was inspirational and attach it to the giant American flag on the wall. The whole point was they were supposed to hand write it. Since I couldn't hand write, they said we don't need to do your quote. It's not important. They wanted to exclude me from the experience. Not so much the faculty and staff, the students who were supposed to help me, they were like do you want to do this? I don't think you should. You don't have to.
DOUG: As a young adult looking back on those childhood moments, how would you describe the mentality that it started to form for you in the way you moved through the world and perceived others and your relationship with others?
MIKE TAYLOR: It started to give me the idea that I was blind before I was a person. I was the blind person rather than the person, blind. So that kind of brought me into my own mire in a way. If you think that way you will be discouraged when you meet anyone or endeavor any relationship so it didn't lead to the greatest experience throughout middle school and most of high school.
DOUG: So, was there a moment or a place that started to give you a different perspective or understanding of who you were and like your ability to connect with other people?
MIKE TAYLOR: You mean like a time where I decided to change the trajectory of where everything was going?
DOUG: Referring to, I know you attended Camp Helen Keller for quite a long time is that correct.
MIKE TAYLOR: I started attending from five or six years old.
DOUG: Can you tell everybody what that is.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's a summer day camp, one and a half to two months and it's for all kids who are blind or visually impaired. I went for 7 or 8 years. It was a lot of fun. I had friends with the same challenges as I had. I was the only visually impaired kid growing up in my town.
DOUG: So you said you went first when you were 8 years old is that correct?
MIKE TAYLOR: I would say five or six.
DOUG: Five or six. Okay. So what was that like going to Camp Helen Keller for the first time? What was that experience like.
MIKE TAYLOR: First I was scared. I didn't know what to expect. I was a young child in a new place. Once I realized everyone there was somewhat like me I liked it right away and I felt I really fit in. It was a lot of fun.
DOUG: Feeling different from other kids at school, what was it like being around all the kids there that were in the same boat essentially.
MIKE TAYLOR: It was a completely different thing. I just fit in naturally instead of trying hard to fit in. It was a completely different experience. The way I handle it was a lot different.
DOUG: You said because it's so drilled into you from other kids growing up being the blind kid first before being able to see you in any other way. When you were around a bunch of kids that were blind or low vision were you able to quickly put that aside and not have to like, deal with it or was there the residual feeling of that part of your identity even when you were around other kid the same as you?
MIKE TAYLOR: It couldn't be flicked off like a light switch. I had that feeling that I had to be cautious because maybe the same thing was going to happen, are they going to act the same way, the level of blindness would vary so I didn't know if they would treat me the same way because of that. Once I realized it wasn't going to be an issue my guard was let down and I was able to make connections that way.
DOUG: If you are just joining us we're talking with Mike Taylor who just financed his junior year at Hofstra, he's talking about his experiences being blind and having a lot of peers who were not so kind to him but also being able to attend Camp Helen Keller and being around a bunch of kids like him for the first time. If you are joining us and you have questions feel free to write those in the chat box and we'll get to all of those. If you would click the share button that's great and hello to those of you watching on YouTube. I think of camp fondly when I look back. Is there a favorite moment that stands out in your memory?
MIKE TAYLOR: Let me think. I have to think back a little bit. One of the most fun parts was preparing for the end of year show that we put on every year. Doing the show was fun in itself but the preparation was even more enjoyable. We would have a lot of good laughs because they would have to explain to us how we were putting on these plays and things. It was, sometimes it was funny because they would have to show us in a different way because we would have to do a certain dance move for example. They can't just demonstrate and have us do it. A lot of laughing. Very enjoyable in general.
DOUG: So we've discussed some of the challenges growing up with your peers. We talked about this nice respite from that and being able to attend Camp Helen Keller throughout the summers. But when did your mentality around your identity and your disability start to shift? Can you describe that for us?
MIKE TAYLOR: It had to be, it was right after I graduated high school before I started going to Hofstra, I told myself this isn't working, and what I'm doing is not working, people are not treating me the right way so I'm like I have to change this. So and I figured this is college, I have a new slate, a new group of people, people I don't know, they don't know me and it's a way to start a fresh beginning. So I decided I'm going to market myself differently and put myself forward differently. Instead of being the blind kid, I am Mike Taylor, I have a visual impairment, it's a small part of me that sometimes it will be a factor, sometimes it won't. I'm the person first. And I decided that I wanted to be that, I would tell people at my own pace instead of being when I first meet someone, I'm Mike Taylor and I'm blind, I focus on other qualities of myself. If a situation came up and I had to talk about my disability I would and I would make it seem like it was a smaller part of me than I had in the past. It worked well.
DOUG: I think a lot of people might not be familiar with person first kind of mentality around disability. Can you talk about that a little bit more, about what that means? You described it really well, but can you talk about it a little bit more what it means to be coming from a person first standpoint? Can you elaborate on that a little bit.
MIKE TAYLOR: Yeah, a lot of people that I've seen that this has been happening to is they get into a position where they let the disability define them rather than define the disability themselves. In other words, being able to shape what the disability means to them and what it will and will not enable them to do. It's saying I can do this and I can do that but I might have to do it differently. It's a situation of being able to make people understand this disability without making it seem like it's too big of a part of yourself to affect the way you have a relationship with someone if that makes any sense.
DOUG: That makes a lot of sense. Is it safe to say it's not like you're ignoring the fact that you are blind. You are not letting it be the thing that defines who you are.
MIKE TAYLOR: Exactly. It's one of the parts of who I am. Sometimes it's an issue more than other times but I let people know my other qualities, demonstrate my other qualities first. If it comes up I have to write something, I will ask for help or see if someone will write it for me. I will go back to being myself. I won't dwell on that or think extra about the issue. I will deal with problems as they come up and focus on portraying myself as Mike Taylor rather than the blind man.
DOUG: I love that. I like how you put like I'm Mike Taylor who happens to be blind, who also happens to be tech savvy, or just finished your junior year at Hofstra.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's just an additional character trait, yeah.
DOUG: So you are talking about the fact that you started to realize that how you were approaching the world before wasn't working and how to put yourself forward in a different way like you just described. What kind of result did you get once you made that change?
MIKE TAYLOR: They have been excellent before and I had to suppress old experiences and thoughts and make peace with them and put them away. Then I started this new way of carrying myself and it's worked very well. I have a solid friend group at Hofstra and I work at one of their offices, I made a lot of friends in that office, I feel confident going around campus, people know me for who I am, the student Mike Taylor who just happens to have a visual impairment and it's a great feeling. It really is.
DOUG: You just articulated this so well but if we have any say, younger viewers that are watching now or come to this later who might be in middle school or high school and having challenges that you described what message would you have for them speaking to them directly?
MIKE TAYLOR: It's kind of a, it's difficult because every situation is different but what I would say is as hard as it may be to not be defined by the way other people treat you, try your best to take control of your situation and define yourself in a different way related to the disability. Don't say I may be, think of yourself as a purpose first who happens to have a disability of some sort. Instead of saying I'm just the blind man or the deaf woman. That's very, that takes a toll on your mentality and the way you think. It's very demeaning and it makes it hard to go through life that way. If you turn it around and say I'm the very smart person who happens to have this challenge, it makes a huge difference. If you feel more confident about yourself other people will be confident being your friend and talking to you and doing things with you. It makes a big difference.
DOUG: I think anyone out there regardless of their situation can relate to the fact that middle school and high school tend to be socially some of the hardest times and things tend to get better or easier socially beyond that. But I think that's a great specific message that you just shared there.
So now we're at the part where you are in college and you have been able to redefine your relationship to yourself and get a much more positive result from others, you know build a community there. Can you tell me about now obviously having just finished your junior year heading into your senior year what is your focus in college and what do you want to do beyond that?
MIKE TAYLOR: I am an IT major, I am between having the experience you need and being able to get into a career related to assistive technology and helping people in need. I am a person who uses the technology every day. I know its flaws and I know where it needs improvement. My hope is that if I can make a difference by helping companies improve their software or somehow making their programs better or more accessible to all people if I can make a difference that way, that's what I would love to do.
DOUG: So can you talk about how, what makes you well suited to move into the assistive technology space?
MIKE TAYLOR: Since I am a person who uses it regularly, for example there are fully sighted people trained to use a screen reader. But if something is not working properly they might unintentionally look at the screen. In my case if something is want read properly or the app is not coded to read the menu buttons or symbols, there's no way to proceed. So being someone who actually uses the technology and has no choice but to use it in its fullest, I know, I have a, probably a more solid understanding of where the problems are that someone else may overlook if they were just trained to use it. I think I can market myself as someone who has such a strong understanding of the technology that I could come to a company, evaluate their software, present a report of where the problems are, recommend how to fix them, even fix them myself in certain cases and make the argument that since you can reach more people now because your software is more accessible you will reach more people and have more revenue. Companies may be willing to pay me because customers can access their software. It's a farther reach than they had before.
DOUG: Can you talk about some of the technology that you use in your day‑to‑day life as far as accessibility goes?
MIKE TAYLOR: I use an iPhone, iPad and Mac all with voiceover. With Mac I have a boot camp edition that I use JAWS for Windows there occasionally.
DOUG: Can you just explain what that is.
MIKE TAYLOR: Voice over is Apple's built in screen reader. It reads out elements on the screen that could be text, it could be an image, say you are in the phone app, in the body you will have the tab, favorites, more, dialer tab. It verbalizes everything on the screen. It will read out emails web pages, most apps work with it. On the computer it's built in Macs too, Windows has JAWS. Basically as you navigate the operating system. So in other words if you need to open up the start menu and go through the control panel it will allow you to go through that by hearing what web element it is by interacting that way. And then in terms of what, in terms of the Windows end of it it's more problematic because Apple has software built in but with Windows you have to install it so there's compatibility issues. Sorry I have a little connection issue here.
DOUG: No problem. You are looking good on our end.
MIKE TAYLOR: Is that any better.
DOUG: I love how we're talking about technology as it is potentially failing us at this moment but you're looking really good.
MIKE TAYLOR: I'm sorry about that.
DOUG: No problem at all. It's remember is not your fault. As far as you were describing technology in your day‑to‑day life were you using that type of stuff as a kid, too or that was something that came into your life at a certain point.
MIKE TAYLOR: It was always there in a certain capacity but a lot more primitive. I had my first JAWS Windows laptop in third grade. It was limited. You could do Word and navigate the OS. It didn't work with web pages or application. Then over time, it got better. But it was kind of lucky for me because I learned it when I was primitive so I was ahead of the curve to be able to understand what was happening when it got better.
DOUG: Right. So I know that there was, can you talk about the moment or the first opportunity you had to kind of work in the assistive technology space and what that was like.
MIKE TAYLOR: I had my first summer internship the summer before my senior year of high school. And I got an internship through Helen Keller working at Hofstra and my job was to evaluate their website to go through using a variety of different screen reader, Windows, IOS, evaluate it with different screen readers and browsers and I had to make a report of accessibility issues and some were different based on what system you were using. That report got passed on to the tech department at Hofstra. They were able to fix most of the issues. I went back a year or so and only a few of the issues were remaining. When there's an update a lot of times they don't realize they break something that had previously worked. So there have been times when I am using the Pandora music app and the voiceover accessibility is gone after the update. It's the most frustrating thing because you can't revert back. I am careful of updates. I wait for some time to go by before I install an update. I wait to hear what people are saying about it.
DOUG: Exactly. The dreaded update. Every time a new Mac OS comes out people wait quite a while to update their computers to make sure all the bugs are fixed with the update before they do it but I'm sure that can be frustrating when things that were working before and are no longer working.
MIKE TAYLOR: I am using IOS12, I stick with the more stable software at this point.
DOUG: This might be a hard question, but like, and I'm sure it varies from company to company or device to device but like, how receptive do a lot of these companies seem to first and foremost make sure things are accessible and beyond that ensure that they're accessible? Does it seem like a priority for a lot of places or does it depend on the device or how would you speak to that.
MIKE TAYLOR: It varies by company. Apple, they're great. Voiceover is built into any iPhone. You pull it out of the box and it has voiceover on it. You don't have to install anything or side load software that's not compatible. Apple is very big on accessibility. On the other hand Google, they're very, very behind. For example android doesn't even have a universal screen reader built in yet. They have apps but they only work with some problems and not others. Sometimes you have to turn one off and work with another. Some companies are very far behind and some are very with it. My goal is to make sure that even the smaller companies, to make it so more of them are with it with accessibility and less are behind like Google is.
DOUG: So in short you are telling me we should have this sponsored by Apple. Is that what you are telling me.
MIKE TAYLOR: I talk about Apple because they work for me. They have great optimization with the screen reader. For me Apples work the best.
DOUG: Just to get back to the internship you described, it sounds like to be able to have that kind of impact from your first internship where you were able to spot changes on an often used website that ended up being addressed and bettered that's quite an amazing impact to be able to have with your first internship. I'm sure that made an impact on your desire to pursue that as a career.
MIKE TAYLOR: Oh it sure did. It kind of re, I had an idea I wanted to do that at first but this reinforced it. This is something I can do, I can do it well and I can actually make a difference.
DOUG: I've got to tell you Mike, I had some internships in college and none of them were as interesting or as impactful as yours so you are definitely a lucky guy to have an opportunity like that at such a young age that also really helps set the path for you moving forward in what you want to do so that's really great to hear that there are still some internships out there that are actually worthwhile.
MIKE TAYLOR: I got really lucky. I consider myself lucky. That internship led me to go to Hofstra because I got to know the staff, work to work with the tech department, the disabilities office, I was like this is the place for me. I had the most social and academic success. That's how I ended up there.
DOUG: That's amazing. I am going to take a quick pause and do an interpreter switch. Let me know, are we all set? Okay. Great. So continuing on here we have a question from Judith kind of related to something you were talking about a moment ago Mike. She asks are more companies learning why greater accessibility is in the long term business interest? Is that like, are companies are starting to get hip to that?
MIKE TAYLOR: I would say so. And the reason why I say so is because as the divide grows bigger between the accessibility with different companies, in order to remain competitive for example if Google wants to sell a smart phone to visually impaired people they will have to make their software better. It will have a business impact. It will be like the accessibility race like the space race. Companies will want to out do each other to win that part of the market share or those customers that are with a different company maybe making them switch over, maybe they wanted to be with that company but the lack of accessibility kept them away. It will be a, not a battle but a competition.
DOUG: If you want something to move in the business world it's nice for there to be a potential profit involved with it. That will get companies to move quicker for sure.
MIKE TAYLOR: Yeah if there's additional profit then they'll pay me to fix the problem. That's how I see it.
DOUG: Right. So moving into a slightly different space with this next question from Christopher, he asks Mike can you discuss your experience as a blind person navigating the transition to a virtual environment during this pandemic? What resources or video features would you encourage people to use when they post videos, live streams, broadcasts. That's a question from Christopher.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's been challenging in a lot of ways because it's kind of forced, my only experience is with college, I had to finish the semester on line but it forced the professors and university to use software they normally didn't rely on heavily. For example they use this program called Blackboard. I got away with never using it because I got away to going to the office to talk about assignments. That was taken away because of the Coronavirus pandemic. Professors are relying on this Blackboard software which is poorly optimized to work with screen readers. It opened my eyes to the fact that there's more software that needs help, needs work. I had to find out different ways to do things so I had to rely a lot on email and other platforms besides this Blackboard. In terms of what video streaming platforms are good, voiceover and Zoom work pretty well. Voiceover and Skype are just okay. Voiceover and any of the Google video chat programs is atrocious, doesn't work at all. And if you want to use the Windows side of things, JAWS is fairly decent, not as good as voiceover. I don't use android but I'm sure it can't be great.
DOUG: I'm wondering, do you know how many students there are on campus that are visually impaired?
MIKE TAYLOR: As far as I know I'm the only one who is visually impaired enough to use assistive technology. I think there are other students who have slight visual impairment but not enough to need additional accommodations.
DOUG: Interesting. Do you find that because there aren't a lot of students in that position that it's something that can possibly get overlooked?
MIKE TAYLOR: Oh for sure. If no one is trying to use Blackboard who can't use it, they'll never know it's a problem or any other software for that matter. Nobody is trying to use a specific app or software that is not accessible they'll never know it. That's where I see myself is to expose different platforms and application and make it known it needs to be fixed.
DOUG: Do you feel like being thrust into a position of being one of the only if not the only person who's in that position as far as being relying on and noticing the holes in accessibility from a low vision or blindness standpoint that that role participates in your desire to do what you want to do moving forward in spreading awareness around and furthering assistive technology?
MIKE TAYLOR: You are asking me if my knowledge of the use of the technology helps me understand why I want to pursue it?
DOUG: Sorry that was a terribly phrased question. I was trying to figure out what I was going to say. I find it so interesting that you, you know, it's fortunate that you are interested in assistive technology and you already had this experience like at the start of college in an internship that really opened up that world to you. But in another way whether you were interested in assistive technology or not you're kind of put in this position as one of the only if not the only student on campus who's blind and relies on certain elements of accessibility whether or not you like it the onus is on you to do something about it if it's not working.
MIKE TAYLOR: I have to kind of help myself and fix it for myself but it will help people who come next behind me and have the same issue I have for me so I see it as a multi‑facetted situation where I need to bring out awareness of how to fix it for myself but also for any other students who come behind me and need to use it also.
DOUG: I'm thinking between that situation you are in on campus and the internship you had, it seemed like life is kind of materializing around you to put you in a position to be someone who really makes a change and impact in assistive technology. You were very fortunate to be aligned with this internship, you happen to be in a position where you are forced to speak up about lack of accessibility in certain places or not be able to do certain things and it's almost like your desire to do it in the first place combined with the other circumstances feels like it's priming you to be a real voice in that space.
MIKE TAYLOR: I definitely agree. I feel as if I am pioneering my own job description. I'm always told by career advisors at Hofstra look at a list of job descriptions and pick one. No I'm creating my own job description. I'm going to be an accessibility analyst and I am going to diagnose your issues. I would rather create my own job description.
DOUG: I'm just so curious what it's like being a college student during this time. You know from watching afar you know at the end of this school year we saw so many people doing virtual graduations. And I've heard about all this discussion about how bizarre it is to be navigating the school space or graduating in this environment.
I guess first at what point in the semester did you stop, did you have to switch to virtual and what was that moment like?
MIKE TAYLOR: Hofstra closed, they were one of the first schools to close in very early March and we went remote, we had spring break and started going remote at the end of March. First I was very scared, I didn't know how to approach the situation. Some professors weren't willing to work with me on it. I didn't know how I was going to pass these classes. Will the first few weeks were tough. Then it smoothed out to where I had a rhythm going. Some of the professors didn't work with me, I had to go to the disability office and prompt the professors to working with me. I had to get used to new software. I had never heard of Zoom before this. I had to figure out how to use that. It got better over time and I finished the semester off and my grades were where they needed to be so I was happy.
DOUG: If there's anything we've learned over the last 40 minutes you are definitely somebody resourceful and approach life's challenges with a can do attitude for sure.
But I'm also wondering aside from some of the logistics and switching over to doing school remotely, looking forward to your senior year and knowing this is the last year before you go out into the workforce and pursue your career in assistive technology but also knowing that things are quite uncertain for everyone globally right now and there's no real understanding of what things are going to look like three, six, 12 months from now what are your feeling about that being a young college student heading into your senior year.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's scary. Hofstra hasn't even announced if they're going remote or not in the fall. I had a two month relationship with professors where they knew where my needs are and how they operated and what they required for the class. The thought of having to start remote is very scary. Once I graduate, what's the work world going to look like? Are there going to be jobs available or are colleges going to be in a position where, I always thought I would start at a college but are colleges going to be in a position to hire someone or are companies going to want to take on an accessibility project? Will they want to dedicate the resources to the project? I don't have the answers and I don't think anyone else does either. It's a wait and see unfortunately.
DOUG: Are you saying that you feel like there's a possibility that in a time where a lot of companies in a financial pinch one of the first things that might get disregarded would be accessibility.
MIKE TAYLOR: I think unfortunately it will be. It's not technically essential for them to operate. It would bring them more customers and ethically it's the right thing to do to not discriminate but if they fiscally they can't fund it it would probably be definitely one of the first things to go.
DOUG: You used the word essential which I think is interesting in a couple of ways. The meaning of essential has taken on a slightly new meaning in this current environment. But you know, before we were talking about companies impetus from a business standpoint to address accessibility and how that might translate into more dollars for them but leaving aside the financial aspect of that what do you think about the essential nature or nonessential nature of accessibility? You know completely keeping the financial side away what would you say to the people that might look at certain elements of accessibility and say that that's not essential?
MIKE TAYLOR: So you are saying if money was no object and they could afford to do this but wouldn't want to do it for other reasons?
DOUG: Aside from looking at it from a financial standpoint but looking at it from a morality ethical standpoint and that through those eyes that sometimes things that someone might call certain elements of accessibility not essential, what would you say to that?
MIKE TAYLOR: I think that's wrong because you're discriminating against your user base. If you are saying this group of people can't use my software that's a form of discrimination because everybody should be entitled to buy assistive technology and have it work for them. Unfortunately we have to buy things and choose that will work best. I feel like as a company I would think that would be part of their core goal to reach as many users as possible, I would hope.
DOUG: It's interesting to think about that responsibility beyond the financial responsibility. I believe this July will be the 30th anniversary of the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act. Though that's something I'm still educating myself about, I know a lot of it was around redefining how we think and approach disabilities as an inconvenience or something that needs to be dealt with and understanding how it's more tied to human rights and providing what is right for all people to be able to enjoy in all things. And it just feels like, I can't help but notice that the 30th anniversary of the ADA is coming up and this feels tied to that.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's crazy that in 30 years we're at the point that things are still far from where they need to be. It's crazy isn't it.
DOUG: It is but unfortunately in certain way it's not if we look at what's been happening during the last week and much longer in the country unfortunately some things we would have hoped we would have progressed beyond are still very much an issue and very much an immediate problem that hopefully won't persist but hasn't seemed to be address the in the way that would change it. So you know, unfortunately there are these things that you would think over time would be addressed that are not. But I think all the more important that someone like you who has the technical know how and the desire to change things, it's all the more important for you to be out there advocating and helping to make assistive technology better for everyone.
MIKE TAYLOR: Not just for myself because I need to use it but other people have to use the software. I want to make a difference that way.
DOUG: It's like the older brother mentality, I don't want you to have to go through what I went through. I want to make it better for you although I think a lot of older brothers beat up their siblings.
MIKE TAYLOR: It would depend on the case but I know what you mean.
DOUG: Christopher asks do you have any advice for fellow students to improve on accessibility on platforms, for example identifying ones self, talking through technical difficulties that may be heard but not seen, et cetera. Do you have any advice there.
MIKE TAYLOR: That's kind of difficult because every case is different but I know what he's trying to ask. That could be like for example on Zoom, the hand raising feature, it's not activated by voice. If someone is raising their hand in the class for example it would be nice if they would say I'm Marcia and I'm raising my hand, some indication that that person has their hand up. If I am the meeting host I will never know. They'll have their hand up for 15 minutes and I will never know otherwise. That would be an awkward situation.
DOUG: That's a good specific point there. Just for those who are still watching now if you have any questions and you are sitting there and anything we've talked about has sparked a question feel free to write that. We still have 10 minutes or so left in the broadcast and we're happy to address any questions that you might have out there but continuing on, I'm wondering you know Mike is there anything that we haven't addressed yet that is something that you would like to speak about?
MIKE TAYLOR: No. I mean I will say that all this can be tied together. One of the first things I talked about in terms of social issues and the technology, it can kind of be tied together in the sense where better technology and bridging the gap where some people can access and others can't, it will improve that aspect I think. Social media is not accessible. A lot of it is photo based. I miss a big part of what people my age are into. I get along without it but if you bridge the gap with technology I think you can help with social issues.
DOUG: Just use of curiosity which are accessibility.
MIKE TAYLOR: Facebook and Twitter are the best. Snapchat or Instagram a couple older ones they're not designed to work with voiceover because they assume if you can't see the images what would be on it?
DOUG: What would you say to someone making that assumption.
MIKE TAYLOR: It's a terrible assumption. What if you want to use it for business purpose, what if you want to have an Instagram page? You should be able to use the app. If that's the company's mentality that's ridiculous in my opinion.
DOUG: So part of it too is it sounds like assumptions can be a dangerous thing to work off of particularly from people who aren't part of the blind or low vision community, it feels like a lot of assumptions someone might make about that community would be pretty wrong.
MIKE TAYLOR: Yeah. Exactly. If you are making assumptions about the use cases people have for certain things, if you don't know you can't base a decision based on an assumption. It won't work that way. I'm seeing improvement. A lot of, lately in a couple of apps I use I notice in the description of the update it says improvements for voiceover users so I'm having hope that app developers are realizing they're behind and trying to make it better and they're foregoing those assumptions and they're trying to make a difference. So there's hope.
DOUG: We have another question from Alana who asks you touched on being worried that there might be discrimination based on the level of visual impairment.
MIKE TAYLOR: There were cases where there were maybe kids who had enough sight to play video games and I can't play video games. So that's all they wanted to talk about and I felt left out but it wasn't an issue of blatant discrimination.
DOUG: Back to what we were talking about a moment ago, are there specific technologies that you would like to see happen in the future, or are emerging but are not quite there yet.
MIKE TAYLOR: There's a software being developed that's kind of a, they have it in a primitive stage where you have an app called be my eyes. You call someone, they describe something that you want to look at. Or a package, you use the camera on your phone to show them what it is. It works well and it's purely volunteer based. The people on there want to do this, they're not forced into it. But if you were walking in New York City and you have the phone out and you could have someone tell you, where is building 106 on Fifth Avenue or where is Room 204, what does the name plate on the door say? I wish it could be a traveling sighted companion but virtually doing so in this case using an app that is good and serves a purpose but being able to add essentially other features to it to make it more useful.
MIKE TAYLOR: Exactly. You could open up a new field of employment here. Your job is to be a sighted assistant and your job is to work at the call center and you take calls from people who need sighted assistance, if there's money to fund it, maybe start as a non‑profit, I could see it becoming a whole new industry in a sense.
DOUG: For those who are interested in Be My Eyes Alana has shared a link to it and it's in the app store is that correct Mike?
MIKE TAYLOR: It's available for IOS and I am almost positive it's on android, too.
DOUG: Very cool. Things like that are, I love also the fact that it's volunteer based but also as you described still really effective. I think you describing the fact that people want to be there and want to do that is really awesome that there's an app that functions that way that's able to have enough people who desire to make it a worthwhile piece of technology, I think it's such a cool concept.
MIKE TAYLOR: I've used it to read for example a couple weeks ago I was making a microwaveable TV dinner and I couldn't scan the bar code to get the instructions on how to cook it so I made the call and someone read the instructions off the box. It worked really well. It's useful.
DOUG: Again to anyone who is listening or watching this later download the app or go to Be My eyes.com. You mentioned scanning the bar code to get the instructions. I'm not familiar with that. Is that something that's common with a lot of products? Can you talk about that?
MIKE TAYLOR: Unfortunately it's very uncommon. Every once in a while if you scan the bar code it will give you the cooking instruction or a chair or something it will tell you how to assemble it. It's rare. The bar code scanning is very powerful. The company has to embed that data into their bar code in order for it to work.
DOUG: That sounds really cool because I didn't know about that and also something like any time you're instituting something like that there's a bit of a learning curve so to speak but sounds like once it was set up it sounds pretty easy to execute. But using my reference points of knowledge it feels like that's something that should be more widespread.
MIKE TAYLOR: It should be and the company has to be willing to embed that data into their bar code but it's not a tremendously resourceful demanding thing to do. So the company would be willing to put a little effort into it and I think it would be so useful to do that.
DOUG: So we have a couple minutes left here. With the last couple minutes and if there's anything else you would like to talk about Mike feel free to do so but something just came to mind something we were talking about a moment ago was assumptions. I am wondering are there other assumptions that you often encounter that are ones that you would like to use this platform to dispel.
MIKE TAYLOR: I encounter a ton of assumptions. The biggest one I used to get not so much anymore but years ago is oh do you need the elevator, even though me personally I am perfectly physically abled. They would figure out someone has a visual impairment they automatically assume they can't use the stairs. That's just one example I always think of as an assumption. I don't see it as much as I did but it was one example. Also it's not a good idea to assume someone's ability. Let that person tell you what they can and can't see or hear. You might think you know but no one can know except for the person with the disability. So that's also very key.
DOUG: You know for those who might maybe not be, might not know anyone in their personal life who is low vision or blind and might maybe feel a little bit unsure of how to say, approach certain topics around it, how do you feel about someone straight up asking you questions about your vision or level of vision and from a spirit of clarification or understanding more, how do you feel about that?
MIKE TAYLOR: That's fine with me. If you are going to ask questions to be able to have a better understanding of what I can and can't see that's perfect. But what I have an issue is when they say how many fingers am I holding up. That's not a good way to find out information. That's being mean and rubbing it in the face of the person you're saying it to. So if you are going to ask for clarification I'm fully open to that and I think you should. If you feel like you don't fully understand something don't assume that you have the proper answer.
DOUG: The point being that it's okay to talk about it but how are you talking about it and from where are you talking about it? Are you talking about it to connect with someone more understand and or are you doing it in a way that's mean spirited or not respectful or thinking of the other person as a person?
MIKE TAYLOR: Or for another reason. If you want to know so you can help someone that's great but if you want to know to figure out if they're worthwhile to hang out with or have too little vision to be bothered with that's not the right reason.
DOUG: A final question from Tina, she's asking how can we continue to remove stigmas associated around disabilities and be more open to discussing them?
MIKE TAYLOR: How can we continue to remove?
DOUG: Exactly.
MIKE TAYLOR: I think the disability community has to kind of put forth an effort to say we're no longer defining ourselves as the disability community. We're going to be a bunch of people who are just like everyone else and have an added challenge and we're going to overcome it and get past it. If the disability community itself forces that mentality it will slowly erode the stigmas created by society. They'll eventually disappear but it has to be a collective effort though. If there's no reason to have those stigmas anymore they won't have a place to exist and they'll kind of die out. Hopefully we can get to that point.
DOUG: That's an amazing sentiments to end on today. It goes beyond how anyone in the world treats anyone who is quote, unquote different from them and finding a way to build bridges and connections and walls, that's such an important topic. Mike thank you so much for joining us today and for everything you shared. It was really fantastic.
MIKE TAYLOR: I really appreciate it, I had a great time doing it and I am happy to have the opportunity and hopefully I was able to help somebody or shed light on an issue somebody is having in their life and hopefully making a difference.
DOUG: Mike I have no doubt in my mind that you will continue to. Thank you for joining us today. If maybe this was your first time or you have been joining us for a few of these episodes and you like it please do share with others. The more people we can reach the more impact these conversations can have. Again we are on Facebook live and YouTube live. You can follow our Facebook page, and you can also subscribe to our page on YouTube at YouTube.com/feeling through. We're feeling through on everything so we're easy to find. Again if you like what you have been watching so far please do share with other people. We'll be back next week on Friday 11:00 a.m. Pacific time and 2:00 p.m. eastern time. Have a great we could. Bye‑bye.