[Doug]: Welcome to episode 16 of Feeling Through Live. I am joined today by Peter Slatin, who is a writer for forbes.com, a business owner that he's going to tell us all about what his company does in just a moment. And Peter, I'm so happy to have you here today.
[Peter]: Well, I'm very happy to be here and I'm a little jealous. I, I love LA. So, uh, here, I'm in New York, I'm one of those rare New Yorkers who loves LA.
[Doug]: Peter. I told you, you know, when, when travel is something that we're doing again, you have an open invitation to come visit me. I'm actually waiting for that. So with that said, you know, why don't we start off? Why don't you, why don't you tell everyone what the Slatin Group is and what you do?
[Peter]: Okay. Thank you, Doug. The Slatin group is a company I started about five or six years ago. Um, based on my experience, my long experiences as a journalist and writer and traveler, uh, as a blind person, traveling around the country and here in New York City and having had many very uncomfortable experiences in a service environment where someone in customer service, uh, really didn't know what to do with the blind guy. How do you handle this person? How do we make him comfortable? Are how do I get away from him as fast as possible? So I don't have to deal with it. Um, so I concluded that there needed to be some training and education brought forth into this space, um, to help people who are working in service or in other environments, but are suddenly confronted with, or interacting with someone with a disability, not just a blind, or visually impaired person, but someone, whether they have a physical disability wheelchair use or they're deaf or hard of hearing, or they are neurodiverse, um, to kind of change the dynamic in that, so that people feel comfortable on both sides of the equation so that people with disabilities can get equivalent service to what everyone else gets to what non-disabled people expect.
[Peter]: Um, and you know, I, so that's what we do. And we go to we've most of our business has been in hotels. I'm sure most of you remember there used to be this thing called a hotel, um, kind of rare these days come back, but we also work with, um, attractions with, uh, businesses. Uh, we, you know, we actually, it's a diverse supply. I created an e-learning program, uh, that has the same lessons as my in person workshops. And, uh, we distribute that. So it can be a run across a platform, um, an entire company, a, an entire, uh, management platform. What have you. So for example, that's in use at the Sacramento County airport authority. Uh, I developed that with a, who's an expert in instructional design and really amazing, man, we made an amazing products. We also distribute that through the American Hotel and Lodging Educational Institute. So it's been adopted by a number of management companies to manage, uh, say 60, 70, 80 hotels. Uh, and so we're really happy with that. And, uh, what else can I tell you?
[Doug]: So I was, there's, there's a ton to talk about in there, you know, particularly given the current context of, you know, like you said, how much the hospitality business as a whole has been affected by coronavirus, and what's been happening over the last number of months, but also through the lens of the recent 30th anniversary of the ADA. And I know you're, you're certainly an expert in that. So why don't we, you know, I'd love to just kind of start to go into some of the elements of that and, you know, something that I've become a lot more familiar with over this last month, where we've had the opportunity to, to talk a lot about the ADA with a number of different people. Um, you know, as we've just celebrated the 30th anniversary on the 26th of this month, I know that like a really integral aspect of the ADA is, um, the advocacy element and for people, you know, kind of the advocacy component of the consent and having people really having there be a legislation that supports people speaking up and pointing out when there is a lack of accessibility that, you know, again needs to adhere to the guidelines of the ADA.
[Doug]: So I guess the question from that is, I guess, from, you know, when you got started in with your business, like how many, how many other businesses did you know about that were working in that space, or really like specifically in, in that, in the lane that you find yourself in?
[Peter]: That's a great question. And frankly, uh, I knew of only one at that time and that businesses it's a nonprofit, uh, and they focus, they have focused more on, um, airports, airplanes, you know, airline travel and they do some work with, uh, an track as well. Um, they're based in Chicago called Open Doors Organization. They do a good job. Um, and, uh, you know, as I said, they're not in profit. I decided to become a for profit, um, for the simple reason that people with disabilities, Hey, for whatever they receive and in the hospitality environment. And I think it's really critical to the transition that the ADA is helping to, uh, to promote, uh, to a world where we're all really equal in the world that we stop thinking of disability in charitable terms and in philanthropic terms. And, uh, and what I like to call, you know, uh, no offense to little old blue haired ladies, but little old blue haired lady terms from, you know, the 20th century, um, with volunteers and, you know, all that's important and there's still a great need for it. But I think this is part of a transition that says, we need to think about the business, uh, and the enterprise power of people with disabilities.
[Doug]: I, and I love that because, you know, again, that, that way, once you point that out, I think the great equalizer when you're talking at least about, um, you know, particularly larger scale organizations accommodating is like the bottom line, right. And like the financial return on it. So even if you're not per se, someone who cares so much about making things equal for other people, which would be nice thing to be implicit, right. There is, there is a lot of money to be made accommodating the disability community. Is that correct?
[Peter]: That is correct. Then, you know, it's, um, that's the, this is a challenging point and it's been a challenge since I began this business and it's really changed a lot in those years. Um, and you'll pardon, you know, I am on the upper West side of New York on upper Broadway and they're not coming to get me, but they, you know, there's a hospital nearby. And, uh, so you'll hear some sirens. Um, sorry about that.
[Doug]: We don't mind, we don't mind sound effects. That's totally fine. Hope they're not coming to get it. They could be closing in. You better hurry up, Peter, before they do get you.
[Peter]: So let me talk fast. So here's the challenge. Um, it's a chicken and egg thing. Meaning I would go to hotels and say, you know, I, you know, you need this kind of training because you'll need, you're going to be seeing more and more people with disabilities come to your facility. Um, and they'd say, Oh no, we never see anyone with a disability. And people don't come in. I'd have to say, well that's because they're not used to the world is not yet accustomed to receiving people with disabilities. The ADA, now it's 30 years old. Now there are facilities that are open and available to wheelchair users and all kinds of people with all kinds of disabilities, but it wasn't a mandate before no one had to do anything. Um, and if you were born with a disability, you got a memos, but please stay at home and don't bother us and, or let us put you in this institution or that institution.
[Peter]: So there was no, there's the tension between how many people are you serving? How many people can you serve? And if you don't make it easier welcoming, um, uh, fewer people will come. And if you make it welcoming, well, certainly what, um, what, uh, disability advocates like to call the ADA generation, um, which would be people like you, Doug, and are people born on or around or asked shortly before after, and certainly after 1990 in the signing of the ADA have a completely different world view of what disability is because they are born into a world where, and into a country where it's actually a right, um, delivered through the force of, uh, uh, of legislation that legislature talk much. It's it's there. You can't deny it, whereas before it just didn't exist. So a quick example, uh, the first hotel I trained at was in your neck of the woods, it was the Hyatt Regency LA Jolla. Uh, also officially known as the toaster was designed by Michael Graves. Um, and I, I remembered interviewing the staff and I asked the general manager, well, how many people with disabilities do you see in your hotel? And he said, you only get one or two a week. I mean, a year he said, we only get one or two a week, a year. When I say, that's what he said. We only get a couple of years later on with the manager and other managers not present. I asked the staff, how many people with disabilities do you get? And they said, Oh, we get a couple every week. You know, and this was a difference in the top line and the bottom line of a frontline workers. So, you know, the frontline saw who was coming in and the managers were, you know, often behind closed doors and it did not see, but you know, that as, you know, just only continue to increase. Right. So, so yeah, there's just more, more people coming into the world, taking advantage of what the ADA has enabled and empowered. And I'm still fighting old battles, people who are clinging to, or not clinging to what stuck with, uh, you know, a previous worldview, a prior worldview, um, when, uh, there weren't people with disabilities out and about and visible, right.
[Doug]: You know, again, without feeling the need to, uh, go into too much detail or share any proprietary information. Can you talk about what some of the topics are that you address when you're, when you're consulting and training the staff of various hotels or other tourism companies? Like what, what are some of the key kind of topics that you cover?
[Peter]: I go about itin a few, you know, I have a spiel. I'm not going to give you the spiel, you edit it's. Um, but it's basically, you know, first I make sure people know more about what disability is and the community. I talk about history of disability. I talk about the ADA, but I also talk about what, what makes us this important right now. And, you know, we have, as, you know, continue to mention the ADA, but when it was first passed in 1990, it was really directed at physical barriers, physical accessibility make doors wide enough for wheelchairs to pass through. Let's create ramps. Um, you know, and that's really what people associate with accessibility, ramps, wider doors wheelchairs. But of course it means a whole bunch of things. So we have physical barriers then, you know, by the mid to late nineties, we started to have a digital world, um, that didn't really exist, uh, for the mainstream in 1990. And so digital accessibility became a thing that is actually only now really becoming understood by businesses, that if they don't make their websites accessible, then someone who uses a screen reader like me, someone who's print disabled. And in other words, you can have a severe dyslexia or ADHD, or just other reading challenges. Um, if you use a screen reader, um, you can get around that, but if a website isn't screen reader friendly, then I'm not going to understand what's happening and I'm not going to be able to deal with it. So there have been in, uh, really in the last few years, mounting thousands of lawsuits against companies with companies, government entities, uh, educational institutions, um, retailers, et cetera, with, um, with or website design and an accessible website design. So that's the second prong of what I call the three legged stool of accessibility.
[Peter]: You've got your environmental slash physical accessibility. You've got your digital accessibility. Well, if you don't have the third lag, you have basically nothing. You need social accessibility. And that we can't legislate. I go to the Supreme court and say, you know, Doug was rude. He didn't know how to speak to me, or he grabbed my arms are pulling me along. Instead of me letting me, instead of letting me be guided by him properly to where I needed to go, or he started leaning on my wheelchair and patting me on the head, or he screamed at me with my, with my hearing aid, um, all kinds of dumb behavior, uh, that can't be legislated, but can be trained. Um, and, and, uh, a viewpoint can be reframed. Um, so to me, social accessibility is really the key. And as I say again to my hotel clients, you can have you run a five star hotel and you have beautiful, um, accessible rooms, which is basically, uh, an oxymoron in the hotel industry. And if we can get into that or you have a fabulous website, but someone comes in and the staff mistreats them and ignores them, or somehow just says stupid things and, or can do something hazardous or dangerous because of their unfamiliarity with disability and their ignorance of really what are the best ways to work with someone then that's what that patron will remember. You know, so for example, I trained recently, my last hotel client was, um, the Pierre Hotel here in New York, a five star hotel. And I really felt so great work at a hotel like that historic five star property, where they really wanted to be brought up to date, and they have hundreds of employees because of their banquet facilities. And it was, it was a wonderful opportunity for me to go to a hotel with that kind of reputation and work there. And yet I also worked at hotels like the W South Beach, you know, or, um, where the uber hip and well healed and, you know, they want to know too it's, but I find it as the forward looking clients that they want to get ahead and wants to lead in the space. And that's true.
[Doug]: You're referring to these, these forward looking clients, but like, I guess generally speaking, how often do you see, or in your estimation, is it, um, a hotel or, or another business really earnestly wanting to provide better accommodations versus seemingly going into it more from like a quote unquote box checking perspective? Like how often do you find one or the other.
[Peter]: That's, you know, sadly, um, unfortunately it's still the latter. Um, there are really two basic reasons I get hired the first is forward-looking clients learn about my services and say, yes, that, that, that's what we want to be that defines our approach service to everybody. Um, the other clients are the clients who get sued and then decide with the horses back in the barn. Um, and nothing makes me happier than someone calls me before they've been sued.
[Doug]: That's forward thinking for sure.
[Peter]: Yeah. But, but, and I will say that really in the, um, six months, uh, six to nine months prior to the arrival of a novel coronavirus attitudes were changing. And I was very excited about this year and on the verge of some very good contracts and, you know, stuff happens. Right.
[Doug]: So I definitely want to get into that in a moment of, obviously we can't talk about this category of life without talking about how it's been directly affected by coronavirus, but before that, um, I'm just, I'm also curious, you know, obviously having had the opportunity to train, you know, a lot of managers and other staff at a lot of different, um, hotels and tourism companies, do you find certain, um, misconceptions, um, common? Do you find like, are there like certain ones that come up a lot or certain ones that stand out that you, that you encounter a lot during these trainings?
[Peter]: Sure. Um, the biggest one and, you know, this is it's understandable, but, and a lot of these are understandable, you know, and you can approach it either, uh, with an attitude of, I don't care how understandable it is. You, you gotta know what I need right away. You got into it to me that that's not going to help anybody. Um, uh, the biggest obstacle after fear, let's say that fear is really fear of the unknown. Um, that's, that's the biggest obstacle, uh, but there's also the, the idea that, okay, this person wants to be independent, so I better not help them. Um, and I had someone say to me, when I asked for a certain service, he said, uh, basically I want it to be guided to a gym. And I wanted help getting set up on the equipment, because guess what a workout machines have all touch screens now. And there's no way for a blind person to know where to stop or start how to turn it up or down, uh, you know, anything. Um, but he and the manager said, well, we were told you, you people like to be independent, independent. And I said, yes, we like to be independent. Um, until we can't, you know, and the truth is everyone needs assistance. Right. You know, you, you learn to create podcasts, not entirely by yourself. I imagine, uh, you've had help. Um, we, you know, we all need help from someone at some point and disability is a place where assistance is needed and desired. Um, but forcing someone to accept assistance. And that's the flip side of people who step back and don't and say, Oh, you need to be independent. The flip side is that is the presumption that you need help. Uh, and so for example, people often tell me where I'm going. When I know where I'm going. They assume I don't know where I'm going, or that there's a curb coming up, and that's why I have a cane or a dog, you know? Um, they try to be very helpful when it's not necessary. Um, and then if you say, thank you on fine, they feel affronted. So it's a very cautious, um, intricate dance.
[Doug]: You said that, it sounds like for those who might be coming to this topic from a very like uneducated or lack of experience standpoint, that there there's the, that runs the risk of vacillating between these two wildly kind of, um, sides of the coin is if like on the one hand it's like maybe not thinking to help at all. And then when kind of broaching the subject of how to be like how to be of assistance in the appropriate way, maybe overcompensating by like quote, helping too much, right. When it's not needed, or then being told, well, you know, like hearing this hearing the notion of being independent, they go like, well, then I won't help at all without really having the understanding to find that middle ground. So if you will, and then, you know, yeah, please go ahead.
[Peter]: You know, the thing is, disability is just like everybody else, everybody experiences their disability in a unique and personal way, and that's not trite. I mean, yes, we all have that issue in common, but we all, you know, for example, uh, you know, wheelchair users or people who are deaf or hard of hearing, um, you know, no one, uh, the, the number of people, the percentage of people who are profoundly deaf and actually hear nothing at all. And the number of people who are quadriplegics and can only move their mouths or their eyelids. Um, that's very tiny, uh, and same with blindness. Um, people who have no optic nerve never have, and I've never seen anything relatively small. So, and the way I experienced my eye condition or conditions actually is different than someone else with a similar conditions. The rate of regression changes, um, from person to person. So you have to make allowance for these personal, um, like could have idiosyncrasies if you want, but, uh, but also understand, okay, there is this blanket condition of vision impairment, uh, and certain things apply across the board and certain things don't.
[Peter]: So the more you're aware, um, the better off everybody is. And as the world, you know, it is a, as I mentioned earlier, generational thing, and, you know, in a few generations, a lot of these stereotypes and misconceptions, they won't ever vanish entirely, but they will certainly have subsided to some degree, but just as we're seeing now with Black Lives Matter and, uh, racial tensions, racial, um, injustice, uh, there's, there's always people who will claim too old and terrible notions of what, what, the way they think things should be. Um, and that's true for disability. Uh, just like, just like it is with, with other, uh, other awful social injustices erased.
[Doug]: That makes me think a little bit of something else you were mentioning at the top of this part of the discussion, but you mentioned that the, um, something that comes up a lot is this fear among people that you're training. Can you open that up a little bit more and kind of speak to that
[Peter]: With pleasure? Um, because you know, the, uh, it's funny, uh, several years ago, really about six years ago to explain what's going on. When people meet people with disabilities, people who are unfamiliar with disability, what happens, what happens is I collect the contagion response, uh, in other words, Oh, here comes somebody in a wheelchair or who has a, uh, some kind of visible, um, developmental or cognitive challenge or a white cane, whatever. I don't, I don't want to catch whatever it is that they've got. That's the contagion response. And now that there's COVID-19, and we know that contagion can kill, right. And actually the contagion response has a legitimate, um, foundation in the history of medicine when diseases like polio or, uh, meningitis or, uh, measles, no, which caused terrible disabilities. Um, and there are those in the disability community who would say, Peter, you just use the word terrible, and that's able ism, and I can get back to that, but it caused disability and people are afraid of them. And, um, and so any disability that triggers that biological, emotional, evolutionary response that says, keep me away from that. Um, and of course that comes right up against something else, which is, you know, survivor's guilt or, you know, feeling, uh, fortunate to not have X, Y or Z condition, and then feeling guilty that you feel fortunate and it's a whole slew of things. And until people learn to recognize it and process it, and, you know, like recognizing your own unconscious bias, um, it will persist. There's no weight it,
[Doug]: Um, I'd love to follow up with a question about actually like the contagion mindset. You said there for a moment though, I'm just gonna hold for an interpreter switch.
[Peter]: Sure. And I'm going to take a sip of water. All right. It's perfect time.
[Doug]: Okay. So switch you over here. Give me one moment, Patrick. Real set. Excellent. Okay. So continuing here, that's, you know, I find that so fascinating and I guess I've never really thought about it in that way. And I'm just like, wondering to clarify, when you speak of this kind of like contagion response, do you like literally mean that I see in some people maybe consciously and a lot of people perhaps subconsciously that there's really this feeling that they might catch, literally catch a disability from someone in that way.
[Peter]: It's almost universally subconscious it's, you know, um, and I'd say the, you know, because, and as I said, it's, it really is rooted in, in reality. And what used to be that you could catch disability and now, uh, COVID is something you can get, we are seeing it, people get disabled by COVID-19, you know, that we just heard about the lung transplant. And if not being able to breathe is a isn't a disability. You tell them what it is, you know? Um, so, uh, you know, there's a flip side to it though. Um, and this at the sort of the other end of the spectrum from fear it's, um, amazement and, uh, uh, some kind of some, sometimes a fetishization of a disability, it's the, uh, you know, and I can best I'll tell a story. Quick story is, you know, someone came up to me as I was waiting for the Crosstown bus actually on 96th street, Doug, on, uh, between, uh, just, just, uh, East of Madison Avenue.
[Peter]: And, uh, this woman came up to me and said, I'm amazed by what you do. I can never do what you do. It's so inspirational. And I said, well, first I beg to differ with you because I'm sure if you were in this situation, you would learn to cope and you'd be able to do it. And there's people in the disability community talk about inspiration porn, you know, um, which, uh, my favorite example of inspiration porn is when you, if you go to say a, a fundraising dinner for any condition, and there's always some kind of a video showing a hapless, um, person with a disability, usually, uh, a young child who's trickling music in the background and a sobbing parent. Um, and yet this person somehow managed to, you know, climb Mount Everest or whatever. There's something to me just getting up out of bed for everybody. We all have to get up, get up out of bed, work to feed our families and ourselves to take care of ourselves. That's inspiration. And so if you say I'm inspiring, I appreciate the thought, but it's also not helpful. It's um, as just another, it's another, it's a burden, because what if I don't feel like me inspirational today? I certainly don't wake up every day and say, I'm going to go inspire some people.
[Doug]: Absolutely. You know, and that's something certainly, you know, obviously speaking from like the media storytelling side of things, that's certainly a dangerous trope to fall into, um, as a storyteller. Um, and, and, you know, in, you know, uh, including, you know, the disability community, your storytelling, um, is that trope of falling into, you know, the disabled character being there, just like their function being to inspire others and, and kind of hold me that. And that's certainly something that, um, certainly it is often problematic in storytelling as well as obviously your day to day real life experiences.
[Peter]: Yep. And, you know, we've seen a little bit of a shift toward debt in that recently, you know, there's a, of course always discussion of do blind, should all blind parts be played by blind actors. Um, I think that's a really interesting question because isn't that what acting is of you not blind, you learn to be blind and or you learn how blind people behave and, and, you know, however know there are lots of blind actors and dancers and, you know, uh, artists and why not give them a chance, you know, um, why not let them do it because they're ready to go. Um, but it's a worthwhile question. And now, but now I think there are more roles of, uh, people with disability where the casting or not the casting, the, the writing and directing is more reality based and more, um, aware than it used to be.
[Doug]: Yeah. You know, that certainly is a whole topic in and of itself. But just to that point that you're talking about of like, well, isn't that what acting is to like take on someone else's experience. And it certainly is. Um, but I think, you know, it's one of those things just like you're talking about as far as like, you know, there being plenty of, you know, not in your example, blind actors out there, and to play that part in some seemingly at, standing here from this, in this moment, inconceivable world, in which every person of any, you know, disability or race or gender or sexual orientation all had the same kind of opportunities as everyone else then perhaps in that world. Sure. You know, that absolutely because everyone has so many opportunities, opportunities are so abundant that it's, it doesn't feel like it's taking something away from someone, but in, in a world where that's so disproportionate, um, in the, in the sense that some of these, some of the numbers that have certainly surfaced again during this talk around ADA, and again, I'm not going to get this a hundred percent. Right. But something to the extent of, you know, I think, you know, anywhere between 20 to 25% of the population, um, you know, it has a disability of some sort, whether visible or not visible that there, I think it's something like only like 3% of characters are portrayed in media, in mainstream, like TV and film. And it's like a small percentage of those are, are played by disabled actors. So obviously you can see the disparity there, but yet it's an interesting topic. And certainly one that's super relevant to the practices of the industry.
[Peter]: I'm going to give a little plug to, um, someone I know who just started, um, recently, and she just won a great award from the National Federation of the Blind. A woman met an actor named a blind actor named Marilee talking to, uh, recently opened the Access Acting Academy. I think it's secure in New York City. Um, she won a $25,000 award from the National Federation of the Blind for, uh, for being great, I guess, for just doing something really positive for blind people. And, um, so, and her goal is to train blind actors who are blind to want to act. Um, I'd like to shift a little bit, um, to, uh, back to the pandemic and, and contagion and, and, you know, one reason I have contagion response is so relevant today is as I mentioned, the pandemic and one of the things the pandemic has done, and there was a lot of discussion about this in the community early on, um, is, and I've written about this a couple of times on Forbes.com. Uh, basically it's shown the world what life can be like for a person with a disability. We, disability has always involved a lot of isolation and it's not as much as it used to be. But, um, certainly I think in the world of the deaf and hard of hearing, it's, it's endemic. Also in the world of the blind. Um, but these, every everybody who has a disability experiences, it because in the certain way you can be separated from others. Uh, you can't hear what people are talking about. You are separated from that conversation. He can't tell where people are going, um, without assistance, then you're separated from them that way. And if you can get there, because there are barriers and obstacles, that's also a separation. Um, so isolation has been key and now suddenly people have found themselves isolating in a way they never expected to do staying home for long periods, depending on others to bring them their food, to, uh, take care of them. They're depending on technology for assistance. Um, they are, uh, just getting used to not interacting at the drop of a hat when they, when they wanted to. And I think, and also to, to really being afraid of catching some something and, and other people stay away from that.
[Doug]: Peter, just again, you know, I encourage any of you watching to read, um, you know, Peter's articles on forbes.com and we'll make sure, you know, we let people, well, what is the, I mean, I can share a link later, but what is the best way for people to, to find those articles?
[Peter]: Um, I, I have a page on forbes.com, uh, search my name and Forbes. Um, and it'll be there, you know, and I can also send you a link to that page. So you just searched through the articles. Now, what's funny about that page is years ago, I, in my previous life, I wrote about commercial real estate and architecture. I was a journalist for many years and that's what I wrote about. And so I had a column on Forbes, uh, in, in Forbes, the magazine and on the news on the website, writing about real estate investment trusts and, you know, big, big real estate types. And, uh, I think a lot of that is harder to access. I think I published my hate mail from a certain orange cartoon character now in Washington, when I wrote something that he didn't like, he sent me some hate mail and kept it as a proud badge of honor and in the really cheap frame. So, uh, yeah.
[Doug]: No, sorry to cut you off there, but I'm there too, to that point, there's actually something I'd love to discuss about design before I referenced that just on your last point about how COVID has made other people, um, have to kind of learn some of the things that the disability community often experiences. I'd love to just read a quick passage from your article, uh, from late April entitled disability will be part of the new normal, and you write that by forcing people all over the U S to shelter in place. This virus is introducing America to how so many people with disabilities live their lives before the passage of the ADA. And so many who still do people with vision, hearing mobility and cognitive challenges to functionality have found themselves living out their days inside walls, that they were forbidden, unable or expected, never to leave stretching back into history, to encounter the disabled out and about was to fear contagion, which I think is just a nice little section there that kind of, uh, in, in, in your words, and one of your articles speaks to several of the topics we've been discussing here.
[Doug]: And again, I urge all of that. I think so. I mean, at least your name's on it, but again, I encourage all of you to, to read Peter's articles. They're not just informative and interesting, but also certainly not short on a real, um, perspective point of view, and, and certainly not short on, on a wry sense of humor often too, which, which I appreciate. Um, but to your, to what you were just talking about, and again, to, to reference another one of your articles, the trouble with accessibility, um, you know, you ask, uh, you know, during this discussion of like, you know, universal design or, or accessible design or human centered design, as you know, our various terms, you know, of, of, in which people are starting to think about how to be more successful, you pose the question, um, isn't designed for everybody. This is quote isn't designed for everybody isn't designed, supposed to be accessible. Isn't designed by definition human center. Yet these labels all highlight something that has been missing design that allows all to participate, to use, to feel welcomed and empowered under any circumstances, however, circumscribed and I, I feel like that's such an interesting thing to open up for a moment. And first, can you kind of just explain what, like this concept of universal design or these other words are and how it relates to the sentiment that you share in the passage? I just read?
[Peter]: Well, that's a big ask. So why not, you know, universal design, which is, I'd prefer to say accessible design, just, but I prefer just to say design really. Um, but we're not there yet, but basically it means design. That is by definition for everybody, everyone can participate in it, take, take advantage of its positives and experience its negatives in similar ways. Um, everyone can enter and leave. Everyone can, um, enjoy the different levels. Uh, everyone can hear in a space, even if it's crowded, um, uh, everyone who wants to hear everyone can, you know, and not everyone wants to hear. And that's a beautiful aspect of deaf culture. Um, but everyone who wants to can, uh, everyone in the wheelchair can maneuver through a space. A blind person can somehow determine there's wayfinding, that's set into the floor that helps, or, or elsewhere that will guide you to where you want to go. That it's intuitive in that sense. Um, and not just design to look nice, but actually function, um, in a positive and accepting way. And, you know, I don't particularly like the word inclusive if you've read my articles, but I'd love inclusive
[Doug]: To quote you just once more, um, on that. Um, I'm only gonna, by the way, I'm only gonna speak in quotes from Peter Slatin from now on. Um, but in your article, the Trouble with Inclusion, um, you write, and I love this, but you write, Groucho Marx got it right when he said he did not want to belong to any club that would have him as a member. I feel much the same way about the inclusion mantra that is being parroted from corporate offices to nonprofit, profit stalwarts, and piggy backing on the diversity whale like a pilot fish, which I love is such a strong to start an article about that. Um, but yeah, if you'd like to continue on that note of what you meant.
[Peter]: My basic point about inclusion, and I kept hearing this word inclusion, and I kept thinking, well, included by whom. And of course, to be included means at some point you were excluded. Someone's inviting me to this dance to this game and I'm here already and who are you to invite me? And, um, and I understand why it has to be that way now, but if you're going to include me, then get out of the way and don't continue to act like the host who has invited me. I don't think I said this in the article. It was just, okay, if you invited me, then let me, and then remember we're all here equally. Not that you're the host and the same. I think there's this diversity is the same thing.
[Peter]: What's diverse from home. I mean, we all know, but that's the challenge. And it's just a know, there's finally now a push to really take that, that, that phrase, that thinking and say, it's not about just populating a company with, um, some good-looking, uh, people in various races, et cetera. It's understanding that there's that this is the society, and you're not marketing back to our earlier discussion to just one kind of person. And that brings in just for fun. Cause we'd, haven't had enough to talk about that brings in ages of, you know, and the concept of, uh, old age in this country being a place you put people away, and because you don't have to live with them anymore, they're a bother. And that's how we were schooled and raised to think of old people. And there is a, you know, and I've been speaking about this more recently, there is a big Venn diagram with the big chunk in it about the confluence of older age and disability and same things about isolation and learning technology and independence and dependence, and, um, accepting your place, you know, age gracefully, you know, whatever, uh, don't get pissed off. All of those things apply in, um, ageism. And, uh, so it's just, just a part of the whole fabric that's, that's changing and getting woven in new ways and that older people can work and can add value, you know, um, age of retirement, no longer the age of retirement, especially in an economy that's dominated by multibillionaires keeping most of the money for themselves, you know, and people have to work. It used to be that, you know, a feminism was given a boost by, uh, the facts of single income households becoming, uh, less, um, less sustainable in the seventies and eighties. And so on. These had to be dual income households. Well now, uh, retirement age is no longer something we can rely on and turn to and say, okay, I'm 65. Now I'm going to stop. Pensions have been rated by corporates and our, you know, if we had a pension at all.
[Peter]: And so it's just things are, are different. And, um, so we have to learn to think of, uh, all of these things in new ways, um, whether we want to or not. I think that's what makes it a really exciting time, despite the really difficult challenges we are living through in this, um, multi crisis time of a way, um, uh, pandemic and, um, a government that's hostile to, uh, to democracy, frankly, and the rule of law and, um, and, uh, an economic disaster and, um, and a sustainability let's just throw in another one just for fun.
[Doug]: But other than that, things are great.
[Peter]: laughs
[Doug]: But it's just to talk about the pandemic for a moment here. Cause, um, you know, some people have asked this and with the kind of we have about eight or so minutes left in the conversation. I'd love to address this. Um, I'll just read, there have been a couple of questions about this, but from the Lighthouse Guild. Lighthouse Guild, thanks for joining us today, they ask and I think it was in relation to our earlier part of the conversation specifically about, um, you, the work you do in the hospitality field, um, how COVID is impacted that especially when COVID guidelines for safety were not designed for people with vision loss to follow.
[Peter]: I'm sorry to hear. You're kind of fading, again.
[Doug]: Um, Lighthouse, the Lighthouse Guild asks, um, how has COVID impacted your work, especially when COVID guidelines for safety. We're not designed for people with vision loss to follow.
[Peter]: Very good question. Hello, light has killed. I love you. Um, and uh, I don't know who they're, but would have told me, um, so it, well, first of all, it's impacted my business, but the simple reason that, um, no, one's really, uh, looking for training on basic service right now. Everyone wants to train about this question COVID-19 um, uh, and how do you, how do we prepare to admit once we open up again and really start accepting, uh, guests, how do we prepare for that? And that is something that people are asking, starting to ask, well, they've been asking, but something they can expect to learn from us at Slatin group. You know, this, there are some real basic things. Um, you know, one of the things that happens is, uh, has to do with entrances and exits, um, in properties that people are now really trying to limit the numbers number of, uh, of entry points to buildings, whether they're hotels or office buildings or restaurants or whatever facilities, because that's the only way you can control the flow of people. Um, and so you have to make sure that when you're creating your, your, your very small group of entry points, that they all have to be accessible because people have to be aware of how to get there in an emergency and how to exit, um, it's really critical. Um, so you have to control distancing. Um, you know, this tends to be a matter of personal preference, uh, but there are all, of course there are people who will say, you know, I want to be guided from point A to point B, I'm blind. I need to be guided, but I need to stay six feet behind you. Um, and you have to just keep talking to tell me where to go, that'll help. Um, but you know, this all plays into one of the basic facts of, of experiencing hospitality from someone who presumes, they know how to help someone, one of the worst things that people do, whether pre COVID and post COVID.
[Peter]: Um, but it's much less post COVID, but it still happens is payable. Just grab me and say, you need to go over there. That here's the chair. And I start pulling me in one direction or other and not just me, of course, but, um, I've been grabbed and pulled from every part of my body and it still goes on. So of course you don't want anyone to do that and you want to make sure your staff knows to not touch someone do not do not do not. Um, and, uh, you know, the, um, I think it also speaks to how, you know, for example, sign language interpretation, and, and also, um, face coverings, the mask mask hysteria need to wear a mask. If we're speaking to a deaf person, um, deaf people, some, I'm not going to say a percentage because I don't know it, but, and actually I think everybody, to some extent, we all rely on lip reading to some degree, and of course, deaf people who are, who have learned to do it, um, enforced to learn to do it, rely on it more. So how do you reveal your face, uh, in that instance and can you, and the answer is yes, you can, you have to stand back, um, and you, but you want to make sure you're standing under, you know, you're in lighting, lighting is not behind you, but in front of you showing you, um, you can also, you know, one of the great techniques now is already is, um, if there's difficulty communicating by talking, there's no interpreter and it's loud, et cetera, et cetera. You know, I always tell people, pull out your phone and write a text and show it to the person. Well, now you can send the text to the person or, you know, we can display that from, you know, from farther away somehow. So, um, there are coping mechanisms, um, but it's still a work in progress. And, you know, I did see, for example, I saw, uh, a law firm that specializes in, uh, it represents companies that are being sued over accessibility issues.
[Peter]: They held a, a webinar, um, I don't know, a month or two ago, a month and a half or so ago about servicing the hotel industry, um, during COVID 19. And it was really important. Now we all know about, you know, lines, you know, saying, um, you know, lines on the floor tape on the floor to say, must stay behind this line. And, you know, you gotta make sure that you're gonna put tape on the floor, say in front of a checkout desk, um, so that people know where to stay, you know, how to stay park, gotta make sure that tape is nice thick tape. That not just a little thing that might feel like a scrap of paper, your brush with your toe, it has to be discernible. Um, and yesterday I went into a local restaurant and I went to order food and a local restaurant that had just opened up. And, you know, as I approached the door, I didn't know how they had set it up so that I could order. And I didn't think I would be allowed inside. And sure enough, when I, my chest hit, uh, you know, a, a rope at chest height that just feels like it's, there don't come beyond here. That was nice and clear. Um, it wasn't like a stiff rope that like caught me in drop me, but had a little bit of give. So it didn't fall down or wasn't really surprised. Um, so it just, you there's common sense. And then there are real guidelines, but it's really health and safety and cleaning, cleaning, cleaning, and masks, masks, masks. Um, and of course, and then there, there are other people with disabilities with reading disabilities, for example, for whom masks are hazardous or dangerous. And, um, that is something you have to be aware of. So if you chatted someone to put their mask on and they can't and wearing a mask is, is not possible for them, um, then you have to be aware of that and allow permit that it's not hard and it's hard and fast when people can safely wear masks, though.
[Doug]: Well, you know, thank you for sharing all that and everything else we talked about today. I'd certainly love to keep chatting with you, but we're at time for today. So you'll have to come back and talk to me again sometime, I guess. Um, but yeah, thanks.
[Peter]: Let's go Mets.
[Doug]: Sorry?
[Peter]: I said let's go Mets.
[Doug]: Let's go Mets? I'm a Yankees fan. So I don't know. I don't know if this is going to work now.
[Peter]: Went back?
[Doug]: Well, no, thank you, Peter so much for joining us today. Why don't you just remind people, um, again, if they want to reach you, um, at the Slatin Group or, or read any of your articles where the best way for people to do that?
[Peter]: I appreciate that. Um, Doug, uh, slate and group is slate and group.com. That's S L A T I N, group like group.com. Um, I'm at peter@slatingroup.com. Uh, my phone, if you want, Doug has it, but it's (917) 584-6094. Uh, my articles are under, uh, on forbes.com under my name, Peter Slatin. Um, and I there's a page there and you can access, uh, mostly articles or all of the articles I've written. Uh, since I began writing about disability, probably you can request some of the older pieces on, on real estate, but I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to help your organization. If you have one, uh, learn about not just training people in service, but if you need help adjusting your employees, helping your employees include other employees, welcomed employees with disabilities. Uh, I think that's key. You need help with, um, design accessible design and accessible digital design. I don't do either of those things, but I am happy to refer you to people. And I don't refer people for a kickback. I refer people. I always give you a choice and it's up to you to choose somebody. So I don't like to be like the tour drive tour guide who says, yes, this is the best in town. And I get 20% of whatever your bill is, you know, here. So I'm happy to refer you to help you out in any of those instances.
[Doug]: Great. Well, thank you so much again, Peter, and thank you. All of you joining us, uh, as always we'll be back next week, same time, same place where the new episode of Feeling Through Live at 2:00 PM Eastern time, 11:00 AM Pacific time, and until then have a great weekend and a great week. Thanks so much. Bye.
[Peter]: Keep Feeling Through, Doug.
[Doug]: You as well, Peter. All right. Take care everyone. Bye.