[Doug]: Welcome to Episode 39 of Feeling Through Live. We are going to be talking everything CODA with Jack Jason, who also is an Executive Producer of Feeling Through. So he is very intimately part of the Feeling Through family here. And before we jump into things, we're going to just do a quick image description. So I am Doug and I have a little bit of Scruff on my face, short dark hair, wearing a blue button up shirt, and I've got my living room behind me over my shoulder. On the screen we have in the top left corner, it says Feeling Through Live Episode 39 CODA Child Of Deaf Adult. We have a interpreter in the top right corner. And Jack, why don't you take away your image description?
[Jack]: I am Jack Jason and I am a Caucasian male with short black hair with a little gray, wearing a black shirt. I'm sitting in my office with poster behind me of Children of a Lesser God, and next to that A Spring Awakening and that's the description of who I am.
[Doug]: So I definitely know that why the Children of a Lesser God is on there, but what's the story behind this A Spring Awakening.
[Jack]: A Broadway play that Marlee was in it's a revival of the original Steven Sader production from I think, 2004. And they revived it with Deaf West theater with an all Deaf cast playing well within all Deaf cast and a couple of hearing members. So they took the original musical and re-imagined it. Instead of being set in a boy school, they set it in a school for the Deaf and it was about sexual rediscovery and oppression and it applied perfectly to Deaf cast. And so it ran on Broadway and it was nominated for a Tony for best revival.
[Doug]: Oh, that's fairly cool.
[Jack]: Marlee has all the signatures. So the poster description has all the signature of the casts on the poster and then Children of a Lesser God as Marlee was in that back in 1986.
[Doug]: Very cool. Well, you know, why don't we hop right into- can you tell everyone what that means, CODA?
[Jack]: So CODA is term used to describe people who were born with Deaf parents. So a CODA could be a hearing person or a Deaf person who has deaf parents. And using that description indicates either that maybe sign language is your first language or that you have the abilities to use English and sign language. At the same time. Some CODAs don't sign at all because their parents choose not to to sign. But it's to indicate that you grew up having Deaf parents and it could be either that you're Deaf or Hearing.
[Doug]: And I understand that you are a CODA yourself.
[Jack]: Yes, I'm a CODA. I grew up in Northern California with Deaf parents. There. There's a funny story about my parents and I can just delve into real quick. My mom was born in Los Angeles and my dad was born in New York. And when my mom was six years old, her father took her to a rollercoaster, famous rollercoaster down in long beach, called the pike, thinking that if she got on the rollercoaster, she would scream. And if she screamed her ears would open up. And this is a common story I've heard. I've heard some of my mom's friends who were devastated that their parents put their hand on a hot oven so that they would scream. And then somehow they would magically become hearing because they thought that the Boyce was connected to the hearing. This is why we heard the term deaf mute because they thought peak deaf people were here. So my mom went on the rollercoaster with my grandfather. He went on the roller coaster with her. He'd never been on a roller coaster before. And when he got off the roller coaster, he had a stroke and died because it was such a traumatic experience for him. My grandmother had a nervous breakdown because she was in the middle of the depression with four kids. Two of them were death. They all went to various foster because she had to be institutionalized. My mom became a ward of the state and she went to the school for the deaf in Berkeley. And she lived at the school. It was a residential school. And in the summer she would come back and stay with relatives. And in the fall, she'd go back to the school. When she was 13, she got a box from teachers and said, this is from a parent of another kid. It's for you. She opens it. And it's like Matzas. And she doesn't know what they are. She doesn't know she's Jewish. And they said, this is for you. It's from this kid's mother. She knows who you are. She knows you're Jewish. And she wants you and her son, that mom was like 13. She's not interested. Flash-forward my mom's ready to graduate from the school. They find out that her mother has gotten better and moved to Seattle. Washington. Mom is no longer than considered a California resident, they kicked her out of school. So she went through the school and then left. She moved to Seattle. She lives there. She lives with her mother. She works in a spaghetti factory. She makes pencils and her friends say, Hey, we have a guy. We went you to me. Let's go to this Deaf basketball game. She goes to the deaf basketball game. It's the same guy, but now they fall in love with each other. And when they fall in love with each other, she finds out that her mother and his father grew up next to each other on the Island of Rhodes. So not only are they neighbors, members of the same community, Sephardic Jews, their kids are both deaf. They both marry each other. And it's like a strange what they called in Judaism or Yiddish and that's, and then they have two kids, me and my brother who were hearing and that's who we are.
[Doug]: Wow. That's quite the origin story there a little bit long in the tooth. I'm sorry. It's definitely worth the payoff. I'm wondering when we're going to make that movie.
[Jack]: Well, it's an interesting, we, we were because as being a Sephardic Jew is a very, very specific thing. And when you're in an, even within the Jewish community, you are, except because there's not a lot of Sephardic Jews in the, in the San Francisco Bay area. And a lot of, a lot of them thought we were Mexican because we spoke Spanish, but it's not actually Spanish. It's Ladino, which is an old form of Spanish from the 15 hundreds. So when other kids reading bagels and lox and stuff, we didn't what we were eating Buffalo and, and kept hairs and breakers and stuff like that. That made us even more of a, you know, I look at it as a Venn diagram and we're the very smallest slice of the Venn diagram is really funny. It's really funny.
[Doug]: Recently did a 23 and Me and I knew I was Jewish. I didn't realize I was at first 98.9% Ashkenazi Jew. And then, you know how it updates? Cause it gets more people on there. And then I got updates to 99.2%. So I am a very Jewish and not very much other things I learned from 23 and Me.
[Jack]: As a part of you within the regular Ashkenazi Jewish community, because it's just, I don't know, it's just different, that's all. And then having Deaf parents and having parents who spoke and they were all short and then I was chubby my nickname as a kid was fat Jack. And so I had like one thing on top of another and couple of another on top of another, and then going to school. When kids found out I had Deaf parents either, they thought it was cool or they make fun. One day I remember playing on this. This is a very specific memory being on the school yard at around seven years old. And there's a thing about hearing your parents' voices in public. That's really like, you know, alerts you to like what's going on. And I heard my dad way off screaming my name. I was like, what's going on? And I go running to the fence and he goes, we got a phone, we got a phone. I go, Oh, because we'd always been using pay phones. And so I come running back and she said, who was that? And I said, Oh, that's my dad. He told us we got a phone. Just you've just got a phone. And I said, yeah, I just know everybody has a phone. I said, no, no, we just got a phone, which is no, I'm not sure why don't you have a phone? And I said, and I hadn't ever thought of this. And I said, Oh, mom and dad can't use the phone. I, we, Oh, so we go into the classroom and the teacher's like boys and girls would have a little impromptu show and tell Jack to tell us about his death, new parents come and show us Jack come and show us the language. And I was like, what? And I remember going ABC... and their kid in the back was going. So I went home and I told my mom, I said, they were kind of making fun of us and my mom goes 'eh hearing people, eh', and that's the attitude I grew up with, you know, like, eh, hearing people, what do they know?
[Doug]: It's in talking, just kind of furthering that a little bit. Cause you were talking about how, you know, obviously each code situation is different. How, you know, what the situation is like, how they identify culturally, how their parents bring them up. But can you talk about kind of like how you identified growing up culturally and, you know, talk a little bit more about that.
[Jack]: Culturally, we were at identified as we were a deaf family. I remember being in school and having, um, issues with English. So for example, the same way that my parents have issues with English, um, although mine, I had a better command of English because I had the benefit of hearing English. So for when I was sick or when I had to be excused from school, my mom would write the note. When my, my mom would ask me to write the note, what she should say, then she would copy it over in her handwriting. And then I would use that note to give it to the teacher because she thought that her English wasn't good enough for the teacher to look at. Sometimes I had to interpret for myself at school when I was, you know, it was open house and they would introduce, you know, and the teacher would say, Oh, Jack is great. He does talk a lot, but that's okay. You know? Well, and my parents were never concerned about, about my grades or anything, I think because they, they trusted us. They put their trust into us, which is a plus and a minus, because if you give a six-year-old, you know, that trust and a six year old will run with it and I oftentimes ran it, but that's the humor and having it, you know, being a hearing kid that their family, but yes, I identified as deaf first, then Sephardic next and way down the list. I didn't feel comfortable with my English until I got to college until I had the benefit of having a computer where I could correct with my typing because writing English and then having to correct, it was a pro I would get back and said, Jack, you could say this a little better, a little differently. Our teacher once said, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And I was like, what's that mean? I asked my mom and dad and they said, we don't know what that means. They don't know what that means. So if I really didn't go comfortable in my skin as a person who lives in a hearing world as a person who uses English until I got till I started my master's degree. And that's when people were, you know, doing computers, um, and I could correct myself. So isn't that kind of funny. And here I am, you know, interpreting for somebody like Marlee in English. It's a very interesting journey that I went through, but yeah, definitely identified Deaf first, but not because I'm not Deaf, I can hear. Right.
[Doug]: But again you're speaking, there's the distinction between actual being Feaf and cult the culture of the deaf community. And obviously you grew up culturally in a community in the, you know, identifying with the Feaf community because of where, you know, your parents and, and that's the strongest associations we have initially, you, you described something that I've definitely heard, you know, more from like, cause I have more reference points both personally and in, in stories of people who are maybe, you know, first-generation from somewhere who speak better English than their parents. So they're often tasked with, you know, having, you know, being in a doctor's office and needing to be the person that's like interpreting in that sense or being where whatever situation might be, the grocery store, you were kind of starting to get at that, but can you talk about like the dynamic of like, you know, obviously your parents being your parents, but also the young age, maybe at times being the person who's leading the dance in the conversation
[Jack]: I had double. My grandparents spoke Spanish as their first language. So English was their second language. So I only heard them speaking Spanish to each other. So I had the immigrant experience that you just explained. Then I had the parents who use English as a second language and suddenly gets to their first language. And then I had a third level in that my grandparents didn't know how to sign, to speak to their parents, to my parents. So I had to act as the interpreter between them, even though I saw them attempt to speak to each other, they couldn't. So I had to operate the inner being. And then I had to, you know, so I was the oldest one in our family. So I was tasked with the responsibility of being that for everybody. And sometimes it was, it was energizing because you give a kid all that attention. They're certainly gonna enjoy that attention. But at the same time, you know, I got in trouble at school because I talked too much. I still talk to, but because you're told it's okay, you know, other kids couldn't watch television late at night. My parents were watching television. It's important for you to tell us what's going on in the world. But then there were other times when they say, what did they sing on television? And as a seven year old, I was like, I don't want to interpret. I just want to watch. And it was, you know, back and forth. And I've found in my journey, as a code through my life that I see code is of two types, one set of CODAs who are really involved in the Deaf community. And they, you know, they want to go up there and be interpreters and, and continue to do what they've done in skits and others who want to leave all together because they felt that the responsibility so heavily on their shoulders, that they just don't want to do it and they want to live their own lives. And so there there's those two different groups of people. And it's an, I was more the- I'm trying to being an interpreter and continuing to be in contact with my parents. Although I remember when I got to college, the first day I got to college, there was a table there for the sign language club. And I said suddenly, and I said, I don't want anything to do assignment, which I, you know, I thought that, I thought that finding a career in styling would be too easy. Cause it's my natural language. I want to be challenged by something else. And I wanted to be a TV weatherman. That was my goal to be a TV weatherman. So I wanted to focus on broadcasting. And then I saw this table said Simon club. And I said, Hey, what's this about? And they said, Oh, well, you know, they teach sign language as a foreign language on campus. So if you take it, and I said, Oh, I am. You know what? And this is what it nets easy aid for you. So I took the class and the next thing I knew I was tutoring because the teacher said, this guy knows sign language, use him. And then the next thing I knew I was taking interpreter training classes. Cause I find out you could make $5 an hour as a sign language interpreter. And this was back in the seventies when the minimum wage was a dollar 70, I said, Hey, I'll do that. And then the next thing I did it was interpreting and then being a coordinator of interpreters at a community agency that at UC Berkeley, and then I moved to New York and I get a call that says, Hey, we're looking for an interpreter for this actress who just finished a movie called Children of a Lesser God, which you like. And I thought, why not? But I remember originally thinking suddenly, which is too easy, you know? I mean, I want to learn other things, but I guess there was no way of getting around it. I just fell into it.
[Doug]: Do you, do you ever think back on that moment where you said, why not being that you now, what had been together for 35 plus years? Marlee do you ever think back to that moment, particularly given the fact that it's not like you were like seeking out to be an interpreter at that time, do you ever think back and go? What if I didn't say yeah.
[Jack]: Well, it makes me realize that everything that happens in life is, is serendipitous or that, you know, it's they say it's a lot about what you do to make things happen. But a lot of it has to do with luck. And I just happen to be at the right place. At the right time. I was sitting at my desk at NYU. I was studying for my PhD in film and television. And the secretary knew that I was interpreting for Broadway shows. And for people like what, Whoopi Goldberg on their stage shows and she gets a call. Somebody called them, are you looking for interpreters? So she just like anybody else said, Hey, somebody's looking for a temper, take a job. Why not? So I took the call and they said, Oh, we're looking for, to Jupiter for my boss, his girlfriend, his desk, they just finished a movie. Do you know anybody? And I said, I can do it. And they said, Oh no, we were, he wants a woman to interpret for her. And I said, okay. And so me always working it, I gave him the name of three women who I knew were out of town. And when they tried to call them, they couldn't find them. So they called me back and I said, sure I'll do it. And then it just, one thing led to another Marlee and I hit it off when we first met. And then they asked me, are you comfortable interpreting on television? And I, ham. I was like, Oh yeah, I have no problem with that. And because I wrote in my diary, my little kid's journal back in seventh grade, I said, I want my voice to be heard by millions of people around the world. So they won't make fun of me because I'm fat. And when she was standing on the stage, accepting her Oscar and I was voicing for her, I want to thank my mother and father. My parents were also there in the audience and I got, I got a cock, a little, like my voice caught. And I'm just like, I don't want to cook my mother and my father and somebody come in and he's so good as an interpreter, she, she was in a very emotional moment. His voice did that. They didn't realize I was flashing back to that little diary entry. And then I'm talking to my parents up there and then I'm talking to her over there and it was so weird. And yet it seemed like it was destined or something. I don't know. Who knows?
[Doug]: I mean clearly, you obviously clearly wrote it into existence as a young boy there.
[Jack]: Yeah. I mean, you set the pancreas up and you do that, but my intention was to be a TV weatherman, but at the same time, I'm, you know, doing goofy things on television sometimes too
[Doug]: Well, as an aspiring TV weather man you must have really enjoyed this LA rain that we just had.
[Jack]: Yeah I'm mean, talk about weather, but my friends get really annoyed because I explained about cold fronts and warm fronts. And I talk about earthquakes and I know everything about earth sciences and they're like, Jack, you should really find another career. You really know a lot about this stuff. It's just a hobby of mine. I just love weather. So, you know, it'd be one of those people where they would chase tornadoes because I love that kind of stuff.
[Doug]: I'm curious, you know, as we start to talk about your relationship, your longtime relationship with Marlee, both as an interpreter and producing partner, and we'll get into that more, but just on the interpreter side of it first, you know, just cause you were talking about initially there were, you know, dealing with a lot of people are in communicating with a lot of people. I understand everyone has their own preferences for who they ideally want as an interpreter. Very familiar with that. I'm just curious, like how, you know, initially you were talking about, they were looking for a female voice and then it ended up being, you kind of obviously now just, you know, everyone knows about your, you know, your longtime partnership there, but like, were there any sort of, was there initial trepidation about a male being her continual voice? Or was there conversation around that at any point?
[Jack]: I've heard people say, Oh, it's interesting that Marlee chose to have a male entrepreneur as their voice. And I don't know if it works. I think there has to be there's something there that has to do with gender dynamics too. I think I heard, I don't know if that's true or not. It might be just anecdotal that interpreters at the UN specifically are opposite genders. So that it's clear that you're getting the message from, uh, an interpreter and that the voice you hear is not the voice of the person that it's just the conduit to which you hear the message. So me being Marlee's entrepr people clearly know that I'm expressing Marlee's words, but that I am not the voice of morally. I also think it works. I also think it worked to her advantage. It allows because of the gender dynamics too, that having a male voice put Marlee out in front of what people think of female voices and or how they treat or look at women in Hollywood at the time back in the eighties, so that if she wanted to be assertive in somehow that having my voice in that might push her just a little bit ahead. And also I'm very proud of the fact that people say, you know, when we go out on speaking engagements and we speak to 2000 people, and sometimes the people who engage moderately as the speaker will say, well, how does this work? She has a guy and she's speaking through an interpreter. And I pride myself in hearing comments back that after a minute of listening to Marlee, speak through me, they forget that I'm interpreting. And then they, they just hear more of these message, which I guess is good, but I don't want them to think I am Mark. Um, and then we played it into a little routine with us. I'm not going to call myself a professional interpreter, I'm far from professional because, you know, Marlee Marlee plays up the fact that we're, you know, sometimes go ahead of her. But in my, in my interpreting, I want to finish the same time she's done. So sometimes the way sign language is constructed, I'll go to the end of the comment and I'll bring it to the front and then finish it at the same time. And so, because Marla uses their hearing aid and she listens, she goes, wait a minute. Is he tough? And she'll make a joke of it. She goes, is he talking to me? And I'll go, no, no, no monitor lead. Like the kid who got his hand caught in the cookie jar and then people will laugh and then she'll say, you know, that's just Jack, you know, but you know, at the end of the day, he's a great interpreter. He's a handsome good-looking guy. And, and she makes me say all this stuff. And then she goes, and he loves saying that about himself. And so we play this game, you know, it, you know, we were on a talk show once and they involve me and they always now in real life, you don't want to talk to the interpreter. You want, you know, you want to talk to them, but I become sort of the joke and then they play along with the joke and that's okay. But yeah, it's what was the original question? Oh, yes. Being the male voice. It's funny. Yeah. I've heard Marlee jokingly refer to me as her bitch, which is fine. I think that's funny. I just laugh because it gets me a laugh and I don't mind. But yeah, I I've heard other people, if it's funny, it doesn't seem to work the other way. When I see a strong male deaf figure, be interpreted by a woman, it doesn't come up the same and maybe that's my own, my own issues with gender. You know, uh, a guy interpreting for Marlee is fine, but for some reason, when I hear a woman in trumping for a strong male actor or whatever, I go, Oh, it would be nice if it was a guy. I don't, I have to understand gender dynamics better than I probably understand myself about that. So that makes sense what I said
[Doug]: No, complete sense. And some of what you're saying about getting ahead is a perfect segue to one of the questions that we have from the audience and Allana asks, well, she says I just started learning ASL and the syntax is pretty different from English. Do you speak in sign simultaneously? If so, how do you keep your syntax straight in both?
[Jack]: So that's the reason why I'm not signing now because if I were signing, I would be signing in English word order. And I wouldn't necessarily be doing justice to those who might want to watch a sudden language presentation. So that's why we have interpreters because they can present the ASL more clearly than if I had to speak and sign at the same time. So for example, if my parents were watching, I would be more than happy to let the interpreter take over because if I were speaking in the signing, it would be in English and English is not their first language. So it is interesting. It's, you know what we used to call SIMCOM and what they employed on switched at birth. But you know, you have to bend the rules a little bit. So for the purposes of an audience, one to watch somebody signing to a Deaf person and not have to rely on subtitles in your SIMCOM, but now subtitles or in subtitles are cool. You have movies like This Year's Menorah. You have Parasite from last year, you have all sorts of, you know, of world cinema coming in through our Netflix and our Amazon's with subtitles and people are comfortable. So that's why, for example, in CODA, you know, half the movie is subtitled. What the characters signed. Roger Ebert said when Children of a Lesser God first came up and they employed this technique where every time Marlee's character signed, then William Hurt's character would repeat what she was saying for purposes of the audience, to be able to understand rather than subtitle mark, because back then, sometimes it was not cool, but now it's all cool. So now a Deaf actor can just feel free to communicate and not have to worry about a character. Who's an interpreter who signed, who speaks for them or who repeats what they say, because that doesn't happen in real life. Maybe a little bit like when you're mad and you talk to you, like what? I was mad as a kid, I talked to my mom and dad and said, I don't want to go to school today. I don't want it. You know, and I would say it because of course I'm a hearing person who's mixed up in his mind, but in reality, and in fact, the code is on the set of CODA told, you know, we advise the director, she would speak here cause she's so mad that she has to speak and then they put that in there. So it's, it's interesting too, to think about how you want to that's my son and the question again. So typical of me, about what, what was the question? I don't know. I don't remember either, but everything you're saying is great anyway, so that I'm like this I'm like, well, I think we were initially talking about syntax, but we kind of, yeah, it is. It wasn't until like 1960 where it was actually recognized as its own language, you know, Deaf people for so long were their language was repressed. They, you know, sound in their hands. They were punished for being sought for signing. A lot of them associated sign language with the smell of urine, because they could only sign in the bathrooms at school. And then finally have that breakup moment that you know that, Oh, we have a language and it culminated with the Gallaudet uprising in 1988 where they said, Hey, we, as deaf people have a right to choose our own fate. We don't want hearing people to choose our faith any longer. I mean, it took a long time from the Milan conference of the 1870s when Alexander Graham bell said that only hearing people should teach Deaf people and Deaf people shouldn't up up until that point, there were deaf teachers everywhere, and then they just banned them. And then it took like another a hundred years before they were recognized again an interesting journey. It's a really interesting journey. Other questions from the viewers here, Ruby
[Doug]: asks, if you've ever interpreted for someone who's DeafBlind?
[Jack]: Who's DeafBlind? When I was doing freelance interpreting, before I met Marlee, I was a freelance interpreter and I did interpret for debt. Why didn't I employ, I remember working in two different types of situations, one in which they put their hands on my hands and I signed, and my mom and dad had some deaf blind friends. My mum and dad had some deaf blind friends. And so I remember talking that way. And then I remember there were people who used a typewriter and I would type into the typewriter and then they put their finger on the back of the typewriter with braille and they would read braille that way. So they were non signing, Deaf individuals. So I've done both. I've never employed. I don't know if they called it to Domo as it were, but somebody had to actually put their hands on my face. I never used that, but certainly signing like that and that night, I still I've seen that a lot. I haven't done it in a while, but I remember doing that very clearly.
[Doug]: And another question is, do you miss signing for Broadway?
[Jack]: I do. I do miss signing for Broadway, I did it like four years ago, five years ago for a play. And I went back to my, with my friends who I used to interpret on Broadway with. And I did, I like it. I don't like doing musicals because somehow when I signed songs, I feel like everybody's looking at me. And I'm, I look at interpreting on stage for musicals or, I mean, for shows as, as interpreter. And when I'm doing a song, I feel like I'm performing. And I, and it gets a little, I get a little self-conscious. I have to say my first job interpreting for a show on a stage was for Whoopi Goldberg. This is before I met Marlee and she wanted me to stand on the stage with her, which is unusual. Usually they want you to stand in front. Do you want me to stand on stage? And the opening of her show is she's in the dark and she's playing a drug addict singing around the world in 80 mother F'n ways. And so, wait, it starts out in the dark. So how are we going to do this? So we invented this idea of having a spot, a little pin light, and you just see my hands and I'm going, yeah. Around the world in 80 mother F'n ways, they were like, what's going on in here? And Marlee met her a couple of months later and I, we all became ever, we still look back and we met Whoopi. She had like four people in the audience. When I first interpreted for her show, nobody knew who she was. And I got to see her expand. And then I met Marlene and they became friends. It all became a strange what I call Jewish geography. Even though there will be some that will be as Jewish, but them for what converted or I'm not sure, but anyway, it's this great. It's a small little world. Hollywood is just small little worlds, small little was this the same small world is Marlee and Henry Winkler. She was 12 years old. She met Henry Winkler. Cause he came to see her in a show. He said, you should be whatever you want to be. Don't let anybody tell her otherwise they kept in touch. She wins the Oscar, but people don't believe she deserved the Oscar. She turns to Henry for advice. He invites her for the weekend to stay over at his house with his wife, to think it over. She lives there for two years. She becomes like the second daughter, she gets married at the house and it thought because at 12 years old they met, it's all, it's all these strange little small worlds that we all revolve it.
[Doug]: I'm going to take a quick pause for an interpreter switch.
[Jack]: Thank you to our interpreters, by the way.
[Doug]: All right, we're continuing here. You know, I'd love to get into the film CODA in a moment, but I actually had one more question kind of, of where we're, you know, in the vein that we're on right now, you know, when I think of just from the avenge, when being an interpreter, when I think of, you know, interpreters, I think of how much responsibility there is, especially when you are the, you know, go to interpreter for, for someone like you are with, with Marlee. And I'm wondering if, I'm sorry I need to switch this interpreter screen as well. My apologies. I'm wondering if you've ever had an instance where you feel like you, well, first of all, can you talk about that responsibility or how you deal with that and what your relationship is like to that. And also if there's ever been a moment where like, you feel like there was such a gap that you were like, really like taken aback by it, or you just felt like something didn't quite go the way you wanted it to. And you kind of like, didn't know how to deal with it.
[Jack]: If you know Marlee and me. I mean, clearly the relationship we have goes beyond just the typical interpreter client relationship. I, that's why I said I'm not a professional interpreter, five minutes, we're friends, we're producing partners. She's like family and the naturally there's going to be situations. And we've talked about this in public where we argue with each other or we fight and it's just natural. It's just, you can't, you can't be in somebody's space all that time and not eventually get to a point where you argue. And there's a, and I don't usually find myself. I don't think myself, I make me a gap, but clearly Marlee sees it that way because she's the one who is using me as her voice. And at some point she might've said something that just ticked me off and it's a natural response on my part. It may not have been appropriate, but it was just natural. I couldn't help it. So I said, I'm not interpreter now as an interpreter, you cannot do that. You can't just say you're, I'm there. I'm making the communication decision for this Deaf person. That's a big no-no. But as I said, we're beyond that. So I just, I'm not interpreting the publicists that Jack, you get your ass over there and interpret. And I said, no, I'm not doing it. I was being a big said, no, I'm not doing it. It was as if she was not nice to me. And I said, well, okay, that's my perception. No, no, no. And they'd say Jack, get it. We're ready to go wide. I said, fine. Okay. So I sit down and I, you know, in some language I kind of do this and I pull it together. And the first question the interviewer asks 'Marlee, you and Jack has such a wonderful relationship we've watched over the years. Can you tell us how you two first met and how it is you guys get along so well.' And I thought to myself, Oh, crap, okay. This is like some movie or something like that. And she goes and Marlee being Mari, just, you know, Jack and I have worked together for a number of years. And sometimes we argue and you know, we get into it. And then at the end of the day, I realized, you know, everything is okay. And, and Jack's a good guy. He does what he does so well. And I really appreciate it. And I don't think I could, you know, he makes me look like, and in fact to myself, wait a minute, I think she's apologizing to me, but I don't get the pleasure out of hearing the apology from her. I'm saying it to myself. And then I look up to Marlee and all I see is this one eyebrow like this, I can't do it. It goes like this. And I went, Oh my God, she just did it. And I realized I'm appalled, which I think to myself, I don't get the pleasure of hearing from her. And it was over. And we find ourselves having little arguments when we're in closed spaces, you know, like run a plane and we can't escape from each other or in a car. And she's calling up a Hollywood executive to scold him. And I said, mom, you cannot do that because I want to be controlling. I know you can't call him on the phone and scold him and just get out of the car. You're fired we're cars moving. I can't go. So she called me the executive that the secretary answers and she talks on the phone because Marlee can she goes, Hi, can I speak to so-and-so? And she goes, 'who's coming' 'it's me, Marlee Matlin.' And she's like, 'how's is Marlee calling me on the phone?' And I'm thinking, 'what is she gonna say? And she goes, well, can you tell him shame on you. And I'm like, Oh God, it's, there are times when I messed up and I've tried to cover it, but she catches, she catches me doing it. And what can I say? I mean, I'm human. I make mistakes. But to do it publicly, I really am very aware of the public persona she has. And as an interpreter, I try to make her sound as natural. I don't try to stay, you know, a lot, sometimes in real life situations, interpreters will stay behind so they can get the whole message to catch up. Dead air on television doesn't work. And I don't want people to hear Marlee going 'eh', or go 'uh', you know, I really pride myself on being able to sound as natural as possible. Some people like that, some people say I'm not realistic as an interpreter. Some people say that I'm adding things, but at the end of the day, it's the same message. And every once in a while I do mess up and she busts me for it. She catches me. It's just natural. What am I supposed to do? I can't be perfect
[Doug]: I just to go back to that story of you two getting into that fight before that interview, it's such a it's. I mean, it's hilarious, but it's also like really touching because it really gets at the real specificity and uniqueness of, of that kind of dynamic and relationship. And I just love the, like that the way in which that kind of roundabout, but also like, to me kind of touching way of an apology, even though at the time it might've felt frustrating that you're essentially, like you said, apologizing yourself, but I think that's just such a beautiful example of that dynamic and how you can have these really, that you're communicating on multiple levels when you're, when you're interpreting for someone. And that you're both quite literally in that moment interpreting and being our voice while also having a conversation with her is such a fascinating dynamic.
[Jack]: There are times when I find my step interpreter pause stage, and she's doing, and this is, I think an interpreter I've seen this before I met Marlin where I can be signing what's going on. And I there's the part of my brain that's passing along the message. And then there's the behind that message where I'm thinking about, what do I have to do today? Do I have to go do my laundry, draft me this it's a multitasking thing that teachers as a kid couldn't understand that I could do that I could say I could talk to a kid next to me in class when I'm not supposed to be talking and listen to the message at the same time I, if it has to do with left brain, right brain things, it has to do with learning sign language first, which gives me a certain brain function, then learning to English lit and then connecting. I always believe that CODAs have more pathways opened up in their brains then non CODAs do because you're processing language physically, as well as processing it through speaking and listening. And so it, we have an ability that I think a lot of other people don't understand or, you know, use as well as we do so I can do that. And then sometimes like, but then sometimes I get ahead of myself, which causes a problem, or sometimes I never get behind. And I'm also I'm also proud of the fact that I can look at 95% of people using sign language and be able to understand and voice them appropriately. Whereas some other interpreters are stronger in their presentation of sign language. I've always been proud of my fact that I can translate into English in a way that fits the person who's speaking. I do a lot on the side I do some, sign language, relay interpreting, and I just love to see all the different kinds of Deaf people that come through and voice for them, whether they're angry at their kids or they're ordering a pizza or whatever. And just, it's almost like you're taking on different roles. And it's a lot of fun for me sometimes to do that.
[Doug]: As someone who grew up with parents culturally Deaf and signing first, do you does signing feel still to this day, more like your most authentic expression when you're communicating, do you prefer to communicate that way over voicing? Or how, how would you talk about that?
[Jack]: I've never been a person who will sign without any person can use a sign language present. I have friends who have just signed for the heck of it. But I'm very comfortable signing, but there are a lot of styling of the shepherds who I admire for their ability to just really get into the ASL. So strongly. I haven't had to practice it as much because Marlee chooses to use a more English based form of sign language. Um, she'll say that she didn't grow up with ASL scope assigned English. And so in speaking, in signing with her, that's, that's been my focus lately when I met her, I was very ASL. I'm still ASL when I speak to my parents, but on a daily basis, it's more assigned English. And there are some interpreters that I'm just like, wow, they're just like, great. But I do get a lot of compliments from Deaf consumers who say, 'wow, you must be a CODA, right? Because I could just see it.' You could just tell you're signing is something you grew up with as opposed to something you learned. But I've met people who aren't CODAs who sign like they are, and it's just something natural. And I just love to watch it sign signing and people who are really good at just what to watch us. I find myself going back and forth and back and forth all the time.
[Doug]: You know as someone who is in the very early stages of my siding journey, if I can even say that at this point, you know, something that I re, but being around a lot of signing, in sign language given the nature of obviously Feeling Through platform, what I love about when I see someone signing, it's similar to like what I feel as someone who's singing is not meant for anything other than in the shower and not for anyone to hear. When I see someone who can really sing it's it feels like it's such a beautiful expression that you can't quite access with your voice, right? Like a speaking voice, like you, I mean, there's, there's this great quote about, um, actually Steven, our actor said it last night. I forget you, you, you sing what you can't say and you dance what you can't do if you're okay. What anyway, but the point is, it looks like this, that you can almost communicate in a way that like your voice kind of can't quite get to that. It's almost like you access kind of a different level of communication through the real physical nature of the language.
[Jack]: We were speaking about language it's blatant has always fascinated me. I've had for many years, I mean, just in Italian and in French. And I learned Italian, I haven't quite mastered French at all, but I remember going to Italy and spending my summers there. And I noticed that two reactors to people being different language departments, one, they get extremely frustrated. They want to know everything that's being said. Whereas my experience is living in Italy was I let the Italian just wash over me and I didn't understand everything, but I just loved listening to everybody speaking in Italian and watching and making a connection about what they're talking about, which I guess is a representation of what I grew up with. Sign language is just watching language and, and trying to put together thoughts and ideas. Even if you don't understand one word, it's the way we read. When you pick up a book and read you, don't read word, word, word, word, you make the connection. You, you fill it in. And so I just love to be in environments that are watching this TV show called my agent and then another show called Lupin. And they're all in French. And I just love to just absorb the language, just to hear it. And I just love language environments. I love to be in any language environment so I can just not understand and just kind of figure it out. It's, you know, it's like, why, you know, somebody says to me it with sign language international and go, no, it's not. Well then how to Deaf people from other countries talk to each other. So, because you have a basis of nonverbal communication, you can express yourself. Non-verbally there are universal cues. I accept that. They're cultural. So for example, you cannot say this in Brazil, someone talking, because that means something else. Even though here, it means, okay, or in Japan, the sign for brother indicates the middle finger, and you have to be careful about cultural differences, but they can communicate, you know, you barley come what you know, and they can communicate. And it's the same thing. I love sitting in a room and everybody's speaking a different language, and I'm just like, I just love it. I just love languages. I just love languages.
[Doug]: We have another great question from Alana and she writes in Children of a Lesser God Marlee signs that she wants Deaf children, generally speaking in Deaf culture is it common to struggle with the idea of having Hearing children?
[Jack]: Well, the reality is, and this is a statistic I've heard, the reality is that 90% of people who are Deaf have hearing children. So the remaining 10% is either as a result of some sort of genetic, you know, passing down genetics. And I found out myself after one of these DNA tests that I have a gene that has been known to cause deafness. So clearly in my mom's family, it's not my dad's coming, or it could be, there was the gene that caused either one of them to be Deaf, but they passed it along gospel that we didn't have become Deaf. So I have heard there are families and there are stories of families when they find out that the child is Hearing. And they were like, there's generations of that people that are a little bit like, oh, you know, or somebody who is Deaf and their child is born Hearing. And the nurse says, congratulations, your baby is Hearing. And the woman is like, congratulations? What does that mean? Being Deaf is bad or something like that. And so that's an interesting dynamic there. I know families who are like generations and generations of Deaf people, and then they have a daily job. And then there's, you know, generations of generations of hearing people that they have a deaf child. And so I think it's easier for the hearing child to be born into generationally deaf family than it is for a Deaf child to be born intergenerationally hearing family, because more than likely they will not learn the sign. Whereas the hearing child in a Deaf family will learn to speak and sign with their parents, so.
[Doug]: Have you ever found that, like, have you ever felt, have you ever gotten pushback from, hello? I'm trying to think of ask this more specifically, but like being someone that's very much straddled, you know, multiple worlds, your whole life, but being culturally deaf from your upbringing, have you ever found yourself identifying as culturally Deaf, but finding yourself in situations where you're like not accepted by like, uh, like a deaf kid,
[Jack]: Majority dynamic or anybody who striped straddles two worlds because they're born, you know, physically different than the family that they come from or try to integrate themselves into a family that they, they aren't like, you'll find that there's this dynamic, and especially being in the public eye, you'll find the dynamic like, Oh, you're not a professional enough interpreter. Oh, you don't have the right to say things about your deaf family. It's only up to them to decide or, Oh, you you're, you're representing us incorrectly. And, and I'm just learning about that now, because I guess with this film that Marlee just came out with with CODA, there are people who have certain opinions and I have to learn to just let them slide off my back, but it's hard. And then there's people who say it's wonderful that there is really an interesting dynamic lately, especially when it comes to code is I found that a lot of people in the Deaf community have an issue with code is because some CODAs choose to speak on behalf of the Deaf community and the Deaf community doesn't want them to do that. Other Deaf people say fine, let them speak because they're culturally like us, even though they're not deaf. And it's an interesting back and forth, it's, it's this issue of being woke or, or privileged or whatever it may be. And social media has given those people an opportunity to speak their minds. And it's not necessarily always pretty, but then again, sometimes it's very enlightening to, it's nice to know other people's thoughts and opinions, and I just have to learn to let it just go. I must've,
[Doug]: Well you've mentioned a couple of times now and about the film in named CODA that actually just premiered last night at Sundance when one of the most coveted film slots of the year. And you know, I just, before we get into that, I find it funny. Cause we've been talking about, um, getting on this show together to talk for a while. And that CODA would be kind of the, the overarching theme. And it just so happened that the timing worked out that it's the night after the premiere of the film, which has already gotten tons of rave reviews. Can you tell us a little bit about that film?
[Jack]: So the film originally was a French movie called. It was a French film about a young girl who lived on a farm who wanted to be a singer. The producers of the film, that was in 2014 and one of a number of awards. This is our award for their actors. And it was, it was a big box opposite in Europe. The producers approached Sean hater, the director of a movie called Tallulah that premiered at Sundance in 2016 to remake the film, but from an American point of view, and Sean, decided to embark on this journey. So she first started learning sign language. She talked to sign language masters. She got people to help him work with the script. And then she began the casting process and she had to, she had to overcome some barriers. She had to overcome some financers who, who had an issue with deaf actors playing the role, the very prominent roles of the parents because in the original French film, both actors were hearing playing Deaf. So they wanted at least one of them to be played by a well-known actor. When Marlee was approached to play the part of the, of the mother in the film, she insisted that it had to be a Deaf actor who played the role and they were able to do that. The film then was changed from a farm to a fishing village called Gloucester, Massachusetts, because that's where Sean is from Boston. And she knew the fishing community very well. And she felt that the dynamic of these working class fishermen would fit in well to the story about a young girl growing up as the only Hearing member in her Deaf family, and the one responsible for interpreting for her parents and being the, the ears for everything that goes on with the fishing business, but things changed. The fishing business changed. And then she started to flower as a young girl who found herself interested in becoming a singer. And of course, as Marlee's character said in the movie you wanted to become a singer would be as if we were blind, you want to be a painter. What does that mean to us? And that's a natural thing. You know, it's the kind of thing that, that all CODA space, should I do what I want to do, or should I do what my parents want me to do? And then the film explores the journey of, of this young character will be Rossi through learning how to sing and becoming a singer and her parents pushing back. We need you, we want you to interpret. And she goes, you're adults. You could, you know, my parents used to say, I felt a very big responsibility of interpreting for my mom and dad. And when I left I would worry all the time. And mom and dad said, we were fine before you were born. We'll be fine after you leave, don't worry. And in this film, it's a little bit different and I've seen parents like this. We need you to interpret for us what you think, but I want to, and it really touched, I mean, I watched the movie last week and I was just like sob because it touched so many points in my life, in the film, and it was just, it's just, I hope people get to see it when it comes out, then they'll really love it, I think really well.
[Doug]: And you know, again, we would mention this a little bit earlier, but I want to get into it a little bit more at the time we have left. You've not only been working with Marlee's or interpreter for many years, but as, as a producing partner, can you talk a little bit about that side of your relationship?
[Jack]: Well, initially the journey was with is just being her interpreter and just embarking on that, but I had a chance to observe that as Marlee, you know, she won the Oscar and then some critics said that she didn't deserve it. Cause she was a Deaf person playing a Deaf role or the kinds of scripts that she was getting. And she would ask me to look at them and say, how does this look? And I said, well I think you could do better than that. That I use my background in film and television at NYU. And to start, you know, maybe I can help you find other stories. And the first thing we pitched after she did Children of a Lesser God and we went into Paramount and they said, what do you, what else can Marlee do? And I said, and I learned real quick that it's all about the pitch that you make. And I said, imagine, Wait Until Dark, but with a Deaf person. And they went, Oh, and I'm like, Oh, that's how you sell up a movie. Okay, fine. So then I started to develop pitches and ideas, and then we start, I started reading books and I started finding things on, you know, the internet, how, what it is that Marla could do. And then it was all about, Oh, let's foster relationships because Hollywood expect for, you know, and who you, so, Hey, let's talk to this producer, you know, why not go produce and say, you know, Marlee, Matlin loved your project. What is there something else we can do together? And Marlee Marlee then the same thing. And it started to build and build and build until now, you know, I'm her producing partner finding projects. So for example, we're doing the story that I found when we were in New York about Prince Phillip's mother who was Deaf, Prince William being Queen Elizabeth's husband who saved Jews during World War II, unbeknownst to the family and her journey and her story or the story of this, of a doctor who discovered a heart procedure who happened to be Deaf herself or even fictional stories that just happened to have Deaf characters in them. It's just about, you know, every, every actor in Hollywood who has a production company, has somebody working on their behalf to find projects that they can produce that they can do. And I just filled that role. I also happened to be our interpreter too. So.
[Doug]: A couple of last questions before we part today, but Zach asks, are your siblings interpreters?
[Jack]: No, my brother is serving as my mom and dad's interpreter where they live, but professionally he's not interpreter, he's an accountant. I was the one who became the interpreter, but even still, I can say I'm an interpreter, but I'm more of a producer and a partner for Marlee who happens to be her interpreter. But my main role is not as her interpreter only, because again, if I was professional interpreter, I wouldn't be doing all the producing stuff, I would just be the interpreter, but clearly people know that I played both sides of the fence.
[Doug]: And Judith asks, how much harder is it designed for people who one doesn't know? It seems when it works most effectively, you're sort of an alter ego and have a context for what that person is expressing.
[Jack]: I've been in situations where I've interpreted things. And I have no idea what I'm saying, but I say it as best as I can. I've interpreted for like technical, you know, they're talking about it things, and I have no idea what they're saying, but I do my based on what I hear. And usually the person in the inner and goes, I know what you're saying, don't worry about it. I know you're, you're doing fine. And I, it frustrates me to know when to go. I don't know what's going on. I can't even figure it out. And I'll be happy to say, wait a second, can you please tell me, they'll use a name sign for somebody. And it's like, I don't know what that means side is, who is that person? And I'll just ask for clarification while people who have a very distinct accent. And I can't hear what they're saying, and I ask for clarification and usually they don't, they just keep going and I just do the best I can. But yeah, I've been in situations, right. I'm totally clueless. And hopefully I do a good job. And I'm the first to admit, I always, when I'm done, I say, I'm sorry, I didn't. And they go, Oh, no, you're fine. You did fine. You know, what were you talking about
[Doug]: For, you know, for someone who obviously has never done anything like that, my only reference point is I'm thinking of like, those dreams, those like stress dreams I have, where I'm like standing up in front of a class about to give a presentation about something I don't know at all.
[Jack]: Or you come to school without your shoe. I just, like, I constantly have this dream that I'm in a musical and it's ready to performance. I don't know the words. I don't know the words I have this dream all the time. It's a representation of that fear. I don't know the words. Oh, no. And then I wake up and go, it's not real.
[Doug]: So we have a hard out in a minute or so, but just with like, kind of last closing words here, is there anything else you wanna, you wanna say before we wrap up,
[Jack]: I'm going to get a chance to see CODA when it gets a distribution deal, I'm sorry that the film was sold out for Sundance. I heard that 5,000 tickets went out the window like really fast, and then they re sold some more tickets and they've got sold out. But the movie would, I imagine based on the comments and the, and the praise that the film is getting, it will get a distributor and then it'll be available on whatever platform or whatever theater you can see it at. And I hope people enjoy it. I And I can't wait to hear what will happen with Feeling Through I'm so very proud to be associated with Feeling Through, I think Marlee and I mean, I think you know this, we wouldn't just jump on any project, but we were so proud of what you did as a director and writer of it. And so glad you asked us to be a part of it. That's producing partners. We're very proud of what you did and very proud of the actors and everybody in the film.
[Doug]: Well, it's been an honor, truly an honor to have you both on board and also to get to know you both over this time. I really was so super excited to talk with you today because we've gotten to talk a lot offline, but this was a great opportunity for me to get to know you better. And I was super interested in everything you had to say today. And so glad you joined us and I'll probably twist your arm and have you be a part of some of our other conversations.
[Jack]: So, and then you'll see, you'll see the different side of me.
[Doug]: We'll have you, we'll have you both back on soon for sure,
[Jack]: But thank you so much for that. Thank you. And thank you to the interpreters. Thank you very much.
[Doug]: Thank you. And thank you all for joining today. We will be back again next week with another episode until then have a great weekend. Make sure you check out CODA when it's available. And of course you can watch Feeling Through, go to feelingthrough.com. It is up for everyone to watch, share it with people and we'll see you next week. Bye bye.